Kevin Keating responds to shill bidding allegations

Hankphenom · #1 02-08-2016, 01:01 PM

Kevin Keating's story speaks for itself, and he doesn't need, nor has he requested, any support from me. The reputation he has established during his 30 years as a major player in the hobby/industry is the greatest testimony possible as to his honesty and integrity. But having set up at shows with Kevin since 2004, and having conducted numerous deals of all kinds with him over the past 25 years, I'm happy to say that I have never seen or heard of a single instance in which he could be said to have done something dishonest or unethical. There's no doubt in my mind that everyone on this forum who has done any business with Kevin would say exactly the same thing about their experience with him and his business, Quality Autographs. If anyone has a disagreement with that statement, let's hear about it. It's always bothered me when someone posts to the effect that the entire business is dirty, corrupt, and dishonest. There is plenty of that, to be sure, just as in any arena where lots of money is at stake, and we need to do everything we can to clean up that part of it. But there are also lots of honest, hard-working people in this hobby, more than just a few, and Kevin is one of those.

And that brings me to the specific topic of the court exhibit E and it's list of supposed shill bidders. Based on Kevin's experience, clearly the methodology used by the U.S. Attorney's office to compile these names was not foolproof, and pulled in at least one individual who was doing nothing of the sort. So that begs the question: what can we say about the others on the list? In trying to make sense of what I see there, I would put the transactions listed in five categories:

1) Mastro consignments (including by "straw" companies and individuals) that were bid up by Mastro employees and direct associates. These are the most obviously fraudulent transactions.
2) Non-Mastro consignments bid up Mastro employees or direct associates. These can also be easily understood as an attempt to drive up the bidding and therefore the premiums collected by Mastro as a percentage of the hammer price.
3) Mastro consignments bid up by individuals NOT directly employed by or associated with Mastro. This is the group in which Kevin was included erroneously, so it needs to be determined which of these individuals were actually working on Mastro's behalf to shill bid, and which were not. It would also be instructive to know why these individuals were conspiring with Mastro for his benefit. What was the deal for them?
4) Non-Mastro consignments shill bid by individuals not associated with Mastro. There are instances on the list in which the same individual places bids on many or all of another individuals consignments. On it's face, this would seem to be a matter of consignors, not being able to bid on their own lots, having friends or associates shill bid for them. This brings up several questions, including a) was Mastro complicit in this consignor strategy, with higher premiums for them, or did these consignors act on their own? And b) what are the legal and ethical implications for the consignors, in both instances of conspiracy with Mastro or acting on their own?
5) There are numerous instances on the list that don't fit the patterns above for one reason or another, and which need to be explained so the individuals named don't get unjustifiably tarred with the same brush as the ones whose actions were illegal or unethical. It doesn't make sense to me that many individuals listed as shill bidders on a lot or two or several were involved in any kind of conspiracy with Mastro or with the consignors to drive up the prices on those lots, so what's the explanation for their inclusion on the list?

In general, it seems that, for the good of the hobby and of the individuals named, a complete accounting and explanation for every transaction listed is the only way, now that this list has seen the light of day, to distinguish between the good, the bad, and the ugly, so that we can all derive the benefit of that knowledge and move on from this tawdry affair. I must say I am surprised that many individuals named on the list have not taken the opportunity afforded by Net54 to explain their inclusion on it. Surely, Kevin Keating can't be the only one whose reputation has been tarnished unjustifiably by the publication of this information. It also seems incumbent on the U.S. Attorney, whose office is responsible for the unintended release of this document, to now come forward with an explanation for all of the information it contains.

glchen · #2 02-08-2016, 01:40 PM

I wonder if this is the reason that all of the authenticators from PSA and SGC will give on why they are on the list.

It's amazing how when someone's name is on a list like in the other thread, they are absolutely hammered like the authenticators from PSA and SGC, but when the accused give a valid reason, you can hear birds chirping. It reminds me of when newspapers get an article incorrectly accusing someone of improprieties, it is on the front page, but if they are found to be incorrect, the retractions are hidden in some small print hidden in the paper.

Another thing about these threads is that Leon has allowed it to be kept open, so anyone on the list can respond and declare their innocence (like Rob L, and Kevin here). However, if everyone knows that the people on the list have read the thread and know they are on the list, but they don't respond, the assumption is going to be that they are guilty.

So the OP did state that Doug Allen was sentenced today. Anyone know what the sentence was?

drcy · #3 02-08-2016, 01:44 PM

I've often said a newspaper's corrections should appear in the same spot/page where the original story appeared.

tazdmb · #4 02-08-2016, 01:51 PM

Just so I understand-Kevin placed bids on 6 lots that he authenticated. Since this violated the COC of the auction house, which he claims he was not aware of, he was determined by the courts to be a shill bidder on all lots he placed bids on, even ones that he did not authenticate for the Auction House? I am not trying to judge what he did as right or wrong-just trying to understand what he is claiming.

bcornell · #5 02-08-2016, 01:53 PM

[REMOVED] This forum is done.

vintagetoppsguy · #6 02-08-2016, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Kevin Keating's story speaks for itself, and he doesn't need, nor has he requested, any support from me. The reputation he has established during his 30 years as a major player in the hobby/industry is the greatest testimony possible as to his honesty and integrity. But having set up at shows with Kevin since 2004, and having conducted numerous deals of all kinds with him over the past 25 years, I'm happy to say that I have never seen or heard of a single instance in which he could be said to have done something dishonest or unethical. There's no doubt in my mind that everyone on this forum who has done any business with Kevin would say exactly the same thing about their experience with him and his business, Quality Autographs. If anyone has a disagreement with that statement, let's hear about it. It's always bothered me when someone posts to the effect that the entire business is dirty, corrupt, and dishonest. There is plenty of that, to be sure, just as in any arena where lots of money is at stake, and we need to do everything we can to clean up that part of it. But there are also lots of honest, hard-working people in this hobby, more than just a few, and Kevin is one of those.

And that brings me to the specific topic of the court exhibit E and it's list of supposed shill bidders. Based on Kevin's experience, clearly the methodology used by the U.S. Attorney's office to compile these names was not foolproof, and pulled in at least one individual who was doing nothing of the sort. So that begs the question: what can we say about the others on the list? In trying to make sense of what I see there, I would put the transactions listed in five categories:

1) Mastro consignments (including by "straw" companies and individuals) that were bid up by Mastro employees and direct associates. These are the most obviously fraudulent transactions.
2) Non-Mastro consignments bid up Mastro employees or direct associates. These can also be easily understood as an attempt to drive up the bidding and therefore the premiums collected by Mastro as a percentage of the hammer price.
3) Mastro consignments bid up by individuals NOT directly employed by or associated with Mastro. This is the group in which Kevin was included erroneously, so it needs to be determined which of these individuals were actually working on Mastro's behalf to shill bid, and which were not. It would also be instructive to know why these individuals were conspiring with Mastro for his benefit. What was the deal for them?
4) Non-Mastro consignments shill bid by individuals not associated with Mastro. There are instances on the list in which the same individual places bids on many or all of another individuals consignments. On it's face, this would seem to be a matter of consignors, not being able to bid on their own lots, having friends or associates shill bid for them. This brings up several questions, including a) was Mastro complicit in this consignor strategy, with higher premiums for them, or did these consignors act on their own? And b) what are the legal and ethical implications for the consignors, in both instances of conspiracy with Mastro or acting on their own?
5) There are numerous instances on the list that don't fit the patterns above for one reason or another, and which need to be explained so the individuals named don't get unjustifiably tarred with the same brush as the ones whose actions were illegal or unethical. It doesn't make sense to me that many individuals listed as shill bidders on a lot or two or several were involved in any kind of conspiracy with Mastro or with the consignors to drive up the prices on those lots, so what's the explanation for their inclusion on the list?

In general, it seems that, for the good of the hobby and of the individuals named, a complete accounting and explanation for every transaction listed is the only way, now that this list has seen the light of day, to distinguish between the good, the bad, and the ugly, so that we can all derive the benefit of that knowledge and move on from this tawdry affair. I must say I am surprised that many individuals named on the list have not taken the opportunity afforded by Net54 to explain their inclusion on it. Surely, Kevin Keating can't be the only one whose reputation has been tarnished unjustifiably by the publication of this information. It also seems incumbent on the U.S. Attorney, whose office is responsible for the unintended release of this document, to now come forward with an explanation for all of the information it contains.

It appears that you already had that statement prepared. After all, you posted it 6 minutes after Kevin's OP. If he didn't need or request any support from you, how did you know what he was going to say? Or are you just a fast reader and typist?

h2oya311 · #7 02-08-2016, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It appears that you already had that statement prepared. After all, you posted it 6 minutes after Kevin's OP. If he didn't need or request any support from you, how did you know what he was going to say? Or are you just a fast reader and typist?

+1 - I was about to say the exact same thing...

regardless, it is a very interesting twist and I look forward to the members of this great forum poking holes in every statement. I also eagerly await every other accused to find a way to weasel into this same category (having an affiliation with M-L).

btcarfagno · #8 02-08-2016, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It appears that you already had that statement prepared. After all, you posted it 6 minutes after Kevin's OP. If he didn't need or request any support from you, how did you know what he was going to say? Or are you just a fast reader and typist?

I remember someone in the huge thread regarding "the list" stating that more would come out and that we don't know everything there is to know yet. If that was Hankphenom who posted that, it means that he knew about this. And in seeing the explanation by Mr. Keating, I would find it completely understandable to have had this ready to go once Mr. Keating was ready to discuss it.

Edit: It was his post in the original thread.

Tom C

slidekellyslide · #9 02-08-2016, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I remember someone in the huge thread regarding "the list" stating that more would come out and that we don't know everything there is to know yet. If that was Hankphenom who posted that, it means that he knew about this. And in seeing the explanation by Mr. Keating, I would find it completely understandable to have had this ready to go once Mr. Keating was ready to discuss it.

Edit: It was his post in the original thread.

Tom C

Yes, that was Hank. I think this thread is fine as a stand alone thread, but I'm going to post a link to it in the other thread so that it can be referenced in the future.

vintagetoppsguy · #10 02-08-2016, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I remember someone in the huge thread regarding "the list" stating that more would come out and that we don't know everything there is to know yet. If that was Hankphenom who posted that, it means that he knew about this. And in seeing the explanation by Mr. Keating, I would find it completely understandable to have had this ready to go once Mr. Keating was ready to discuss it.

Edit: It was his post in the original thread.

Tom C

Yes, but Hank's opening statement is misleading, is it not? He states that Kevin doesn't need, nor requested any support from him. Maybe it is understandable to have the statement ready, but do you think they posted 6 minutes apart by accident? No, it was planned.

glchen · #11 02-08-2016, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, but Hank's opening statement is misleading, is it not? He states that Kevin doesn't need, nor requested any support from him. Maybe it is understandable to have the statement ready, but do you think they posted 6 minutes apart by accident? No, it was planned.

David, what does any of this have to do with whether Kevin shilled or not? If you believe Kevin's reason on why he appeared on the list is not legit, go ahead and poke holes in it, but I don't think whatever Hank said is relevant.

vintagetoppsguy · #12 02-08-2016, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glchen

David, what does any of this have to do with whether Kevin shilled or not? If you believe Kevin's reason on why he appeared on the list is not legit, go ahead and poke holes in it, but I don't think whatever Hank said is relevant.

Because when somebody (Kevin) tells the truth, they usually don't need others with prepared statements to vouch for them. Or am I way off base here?

trobba · #13 02-08-2016, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Because when somebody (Kevin) tells the truth, they usually don't need others with prepared statements to vouch for them. Or am I way off base here?

I have no idea if you are off base or if it means anything, but I too noticed the lengthy, thought out response that was posted almost simultaneously as the OP.

Means absolutely nothing to me other than I noticed it and thought it was odd.

Rob G$the!l

glchen · #14 02-08-2016, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Because when somebody (Kevin) tells the truth, they usually don't need others with prepared statements to vouch for them. Or am I way off base here?

David, I don't mean to speak for Hank, and I have no idea what actually happened. However, if I had to guess, it probably went something like this where after Kevin appeared on the list, Hank contacted him to ask him what was going on. Kevin then probably told Hank privately what happened, but said he wanted to wait until Doug Allen was sentenced to publish it. Then as Hank saw Kevin get completely hammered in the list thread, he probably wrote his long post wanting to defend him, but then in the end, decided to just wait until Kevin posted this thread before he gave his response. Again, this is just my guess, as I have no idea what exactly happened, but it seems harmless to me.

xplainer · #15 02-08-2016, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It appears that you already had that statement prepared. After all, you posted it 6 minutes after Kevin's OP. If he didn't need or request any support from you, how did you know what he was going to say? Or are you just a fast reader and typist?

Keen eye and exactly right. Nice pick up there. No way he typed his post within seven minutes of the OP. No way sir.

botn · #16 02-08-2016, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xplainer

Keen eye and exactly right. Nice pick up there. No way he typed his post within seven minutes of the OP. No way sir.

Correct. Hank addresses this in post 18 on this thread at 2:30 today.

Piratedogcardshows · #17 02-08-2016, 08:24 PM

You can't write fiction this good. Prepared response, what's next? Good catch David.

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