Was Cobb really as people perceive him???

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

There was another bio of Cobb published last year, Tim Hornbaker's "War on the Basepaths: The Definitive Biography of Ty Cobb":

http://www.amazon.com/War-Basepaths-...dp/161321765X/

Like Leerhsen, Hornbaker takes a revisionist view in arguing that Cobb was not the horrible monster he's traditionally been depicted as (and he also slams Al Stump for his distortions), but he is less willing than Leerhsen to excuse or explain away Cobb's racism. He basically says that Cobb was certainly a racist by our modern standards, but essentially all Southern white people of that era were, and Cobb wasn't as bad as many, and wasn't nearly as bad as most people (especially Stump) have depicted him.

Dave, I think they came out on the same day! I was going to get that one as well but I got the latter. I think I will pick this one up as well. I've read almost any bio on Cobb there is to this point might as well read this one too !!! Thanks for reminding me about that one

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I've read almost any bio on Cobb there is to this point might as well read this one too !!!

Hey There Josh...
Mr. Cobb has Always had an Intriguing Personality.
The Good and Bad, the two of me!
Aren't we all Subject to our environment?
Fir me the Man Seemed to have grown into a Gentlemen in his later life!
Bein "Mr. Charlie Hustle"(times Ten) in c1910ish, so ta Speak, along wit carryin a Tragic Youthful family event would lead anyone of us inta behavior that would, when looked back upon, cause us ta have some regret.

I know that You as the OP have asked fir others opinions...
However, it seems ta me that wit all of your due diligents inta Mr. Cobbs Life...
I fir one would Love ta hear Your Opinion of the Man.
So when You find the time.

Also, as bein an avid Matty fan...
I've Never Run Across this Story of "The Christian Gentleman" punching a fan,
Musta missed that one in its entirety. Or maybe I just firgot

Can You Point me and others wishin ta know about the Event,
where you came across this Story!?

Love ta read about it!

Thank You Kindly my Friend...

[CMIZ5290]

Stump's book was somewhat out of bounds pertaining Cobb in my opinion. Yes, he would fight you at the drop of a hat, but he also had a tremendous upside pertaining charities and fellow players that he really cared about. I have a distant relative that was a HOFer, and he told my father how generous Cobb was with his money, and how he supported some of his baseball friends (one being HOFer Mickey Cochrane). Having said that, a ton of players hated him. He would slide into you trying to steal a base or break up a double play. I don't think to this day that he was a racist, but he did sometimes appear that way because of his Georgia roots and the way he was depicted . If I'm not mistaken, he had a personal housekeeper in Nevada that he left a ton of money to when he died....

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Hey There Josh...
Mr. Cobb has Always had an Intriguing Personality.
The Good and Bad, the two of me!
Aren't we all Subject to our environment?
Fir me the Man Seemed to have grown into a Gentlemen in his later life!
Bein "Mr. Charlie Hustle"(times Ten) in c1910ish, so ta Speak, along wit carryin a Tragic Youthful family event would lead anyone of us inta behavior that would, when looked back upon, cause us ta have some regret.

I know that You as the OP have asked fir others opinions...
However, it seems ta me that wit all of your due diligents inta Mr. Cobbs Life...
I fir one would Love ta hear Your Opinion of the Man.
So when You find the time.

Also, as bein an avid Matty fan...
I've Never Run Across this Story of "The Christian Gentleman" punching a fan,
Musta missed that one in its entirety. Or maybe I just firgot

Can You Point me and others wishin ta know about the Event,
where you came across this Story!?

Love ta read about it!

Thank You Kindly my Friend...

Well Denny to be honest I had thought (for the most part) as most people had until I started reading this new book.

It points out plenty of information that simply was said to have been true but is not.

Sure he had "spiked" other players but it was known in those days and for his opponents for that matter that the base paths were his and the other runners. The famous HR Baker spiking was blown well out of proportion which Baker admitted himself.

The Hotel dude had no indication as the author states of being black. Back in those days it was common to blow up a story or just flat out (if involving a black person) to use an ethnic slur in the paper. NONE of the papers from that indecent included such.

The Meat Cutter at the grocery store was also said to have been black which of course he was not. In the police report or whatever report it was of the grocery worker a designation of "W" was placed next to his name. Again not an ethnic slur in the paper about that person as well.

It was known that he had a black bat boy for about 7 years at one point. The bat-boy was looked after under his watch. Often Cobb supposedly let the bat-boy room with him when he was denied anywhere else to sleep, and made sure that he was fed.

These are just a few of the stories in the book that have proved Stump and Alexander's stories to be total BS. The author also said that he wrote to Alexander about the hotel incident and asked how he knew that the worker was black. Alexander replied that he had no concrete evidence and wrote it anyway.

Perhaps he was disliked because he went hard on the base paths and he took the game more serious than others. Perhaps Crawford was jealous that he took his spot light and got paid significantly better than him.

His short temper was there no doubt. As most Irishmen have a short fuse, I'm sure the death of his father had something to do with this.

To use an analogy of similar proportions. Those who knew about Lemmy Kilmister being accused of being a Nazi simply because he wore Nazi suites. He stated that if the Israeli army had the best looking uniforms he would have worn those. He was the worst Nazi ever for having black girlfriends. Cobb was no more a racist than Lemmy was a Nazi.

P.S. "The Christian Gentleman" was a part in the book which the other was making a point after the incident with the NY heckler, that he was far from the only player to have gotten into a scuff with a fan in the stands. The other named a couple players and didn't go into detail about any of them and at the end of the list mentioned Matty socking someone in the face.

That fan in particular was allegedly at all 3 or 4 games that series between the Tigers and Yanks. He was asked by Ty to stop the heckling. Ty even went into the Yankees dugout to ask that the fan be removed. I think it was the last game of the series and the fan had already started heckling him during batting practice. Just goes to show that it wasn't exactly like the fan was there said one thing at one game and the rest is history. There was a bit more back story to that incident.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I have read just about everything printed on Cobb over the years and have listened or read countless SABR debates on the quality of the man.

The new book by Leerhsen is very enjoyable and has a ton of revisionist" theories that are fun. The truth lies somewhere in between Stump's outrageous silliness (which should not even be considered as research) and Leerhsen's new book. Neither hit it on the head.

As for Charles Alexander's tome, it is first rate in every way. Mr. Alexander is one of the finest baseball historians in the country. John Thorn often refers to this book and I do not question Mr. Thorn.

Cobb was a tremendous player and at times showed a kind and generous side and at other times showed no signs of personal self control. It appears he suffered from much of the trauma of his early life and at times a rage took control of him that he had no way of stopping.

Mr. Leerhsen's research often refers to general comments and not fact. As for the quotes from former teammates like Crawford, Sam made them when Ty was still playing and no one debated them at that time? Crawford had little ego ad actually preferred to stay out of the lime light so I doubt jealousy played a role.

With all this said I enjoyed the new book and encourage people to read but not to forget all the time and research put into a dozen earlier books save Stump's worthless treatment.

[packs]

You can't read Glory of Their Times and take everything as fact or at face value. As with any historical account, you are left only with the side of the story that outlives the other. Cobb was dead. He could not speak for himself. If Crawford had a vendetta, he had free will to say whatever he wanted and have it written down.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by packs

You can't read Glory of Their Times and take everything as fact or at face value. As with any historical account, you are left only with the side of the story that outlives the other. Cobb was dead. He could not speak for himself. If Crawford had a vendetta, he had free will to say whatever he wanted and have it written down.

In my opinion it's Crawford that comes off as "Cobb"esque in GOTT. Seems he had a really tough time adapting to life after baseball. and seems a cantankerous old soul

[Bpm0014]

His short temper was there no doubt. As most Irishmen have a short fuse, I'm sure the death of his father had something to do with this.

Cobb was Irish?? I like him even more now!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

You can't read Glory of Their Times and take everything as fact or at face value. As with any historical account, you are left only with the side of the story that outlives the other. Cobb was dead. He could not speak for himself. If Crawford had a vendetta, he had free will to say whatever he wanted and have it written down.

Originally Posted by byrone

In my opinion it's Crawford that comes off as "Cobb"esque in GOTT. Seems he had a really tough time adapting to life after baseball. and seems a cantankerous old soul

More than one of us have referenced the audio of GOTT, as opposed to material in the books. Cobb spoke for himself with his actions. After he was dead, there were only those who knew him who could talk about him. They didn't have much favorable to say. Smearing Crawford in order to make Cobb seem less racist is a long shot.

But anyone in 2016 who wants to disregard Cobb's racism is obviously free to do so. Revising history is still popular and effective.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Well said Scott