Looking for a 2nd example of the T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) / Black LENOX card

tedzan · #1 02-18-2016, 08:01 AM

Hey guys,

Regarding the "Re-Fronted" T206 cards....the more than a dozen of them that were in circulation several years ago....were all graded (either by PSA or SGC).

So, you cannot depend on the Grading Company's to screen out these T206 fakes. The guy(s) who created these fakes were very professional paper restorers
and their workmanship was very high quality.

Fortunately, for us T206 dudes....this guy(s) were not knowledgeable of the legitimate T206 front/back combinations; therefore, we detected they were fakes.

Anyhow, I'm confident that the Cobb / LENOX card that Art posted here is legitimate; and, the REWARD has been mailed to Art.

TED Z
.

Sean · #2 02-18-2016, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Fortunately, for us T206 dudes....this guy(s) were not knowledgeable of the legitimate T206 front/back combinations; therefore, we detected they were fakes.

TED Z
.

Does this include the Mathewson/ Red Hindu card that turned out to be a re-backed fake?

tedzan · #3 02-18-2016, 11:32 AM

The Matty (portrait) / red HINDU was one of the first fakes (circa....2000) that alerted us to the numerous re-fronted T206's. If I recall correctly, SGC graded this fake.

Then dozens of these fakes followed and most were good enough that PSA and SGC graded them.

One of the last re-fronted fakes to be detected was back in 2012. A Green Cobb with a CYCLE 350. PSA graded this Cobb. Subsequently, it sold at an auction for $3000 !

Link to thread......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...cycle+350+back

TED Z
.

ullmandds · #4 02-18-2016, 12:24 PM

so whomever made/commissioned these rebacked fakes seem to have been quite savvy to the "feasibility" of different front/back t206 combos, huh?

Peter_Spaeth · #5 02-18-2016, 12:26 PM

So despite the existence of all these documented fakes, from the same time period this otherwise non-existent combo is real?

Pat R · #6 02-18-2016, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So despite the existence of all these documented fakes, from the same time period this otherwise non-existent combo is real?

All the fakes were impossible front/back combos, the Cobb (bat off) has
always been possible with a black Lenox back.

tedzan · #7 02-18-2016, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So despite the existence of all these documented fakes, from the same time period this otherwise non-existent combo is real?

You ask a very good question....and before I try to answer it regarding this particular Cobb / LENOX card, what is quite "scarry"
in my mind is what is the probabilty that these "re-fronting dudes" also created T206's with legitimate front/back combos ?

The probabilty of this occurence ranges from 0 - 50 %. I would bet that there are re-fronted T206's with legitimate front/back
combos in circulation in the hobby that will never be discovered as fakes.

Now, to answer your question. Art M. has provided a history of this Cobb / black LENOX card; and, that is that it was first seen
years ago prior to the period (circa..2000) that the rash of the re-fronted T206's first came into circulation.
Furthermore, none of the re-fronted T206's that have been detected were in the condition this Cobb is in. To my knowledge, all
the re-fronted T206's that were exposed were in VgEx to ExMt condition (and, some Authentic as graded by PSA or SGC).

TED Z
.

Luke · #8 02-18-2016, 02:33 PM

Just to play devil's advocate: It is certainly possible that this card could be both re-backed, and not done by the same person who did the others that you are telling us about. It wouldn't even need to have been done in order to deceive. That card is in rough enough shape that it isn't hard to imagine someone creating a new card from a Lenox back with front damage and a Cobb with back damage.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 02-18-2016, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

You ask a very good question....and before I try to answer it regarding this particular Cobb / LENOX card, what is quite "scarry"
in my mind is what is the probabilty that these "re-fronting dudes" also created T206's with legitimate front/back combos ?

The probabilty of this occurence ranges from 0 - 50 %. I would bet that there are re-fronted T206's with legitimate front/back
combos in circulation in the hobby that will never be discovered as fakes.

Now, to answer your question. Art M. has provided a history of this Cobb / black LENOX card; and, that is that it was first seen
years ago prior to the period (circa..2000) that the rash of the re-fronted T206's first came into circulation.
Furthermore, none of the re-fronted T206's that have been detected were in the condition this Cobb is in. To my knowledge, all
the re-fronted T206's that were exposed were in VgEx to ExMt condition (and, some Authentic as graded by PSA or SGC).

TED Z
.

I understood your post to say Art had dated it to 15 years ago, which is the same time period as the fakes?

"Art told me that this Cobb first appeared at least 15 years ago."

MW1 · #10 02-19-2016, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys,

Regarding the "Re-Fronted" T206 cards....the more than a dozen of them that were in circulation several years ago....were all graded (either by PSA or SGC).

So, you cannot depend on the Grading Company's to screen out these T206 fakes. The guy(s) who created these fakes were very professional paper restorers
and their workmanship was very high quality.

Fortunately, for us T206 dudes....this guy(s) were not knowledgeable of the legitimate T206 front/back combinations; therefore, we detected they were fakes.

Anyhow, I'm confident that the Cobb / LENOX card that Art posted here is legitimate; and, the REWARD has been mailed to Art.

TED Z
.

Ted,

I have great respect for you but I think you need to get your money back. I was the one who helped identify the bogus T206 Red Hindu Mathewson (and removed it from the market) and this card (the Cobb in question) bears many of the same signs of being re-backed. In fact, I would say the job that was done was quite sloppy. Look closely and you'll see evidence on both the right and left edges on front that the reverse side is larger and overlaps the obverse in several areas. Also, the artificial wear that was added is ridiculous. No legitimate T206s, even those with advanced wear, have edges like that.

Sean · #11 02-20-2016, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MW1

Look closely and you'll see evidence on both the right and left edges on front that the reverse side is larger and overlaps the obverse in several areas.

I can definitely see what you mean on the lower right corner.

tedzan · #12 02-20-2016, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MW1

Ted,

I have great respect for you but I think you need to get your money back. I was the one who helped identify the bogus T206 Red Hindu Mathewson (and removed it from the market) and this card (the Cobb in question) bears many of the same signs of being re-backed. In fact, I would say the job that was done was quite sloppy. Look closely and you'll see evidence on both the right and left edges on front that the reverse side is larger and overlaps the obverse in several areas. Also, the artificial wear that was added is ridiculous. No legitimate T206s, even those with advanced wear, have edges like that.

I'll tell you where I'm coming from on this subject....I have never seen a black LENOX back on this Cobb ; and, I have been collecting T206's since Bill Heitman published
his famous book "The Monster". Furthermore, more than a dozen long-time serious T206 collectors tell me the same.

Yet, certain websites claim this Cobb front/back combo has been "confirmed".

If this Cobb that Art M. has posted is as you (and some others) suspect a "fake", then my original contention questioning the existence of this Cobb is justified.

In any event, I have a better understanding now as to why this Cobb with a black LENOX back is claimed to exist.

Incidentally,
I really appreciated Art showing us this Cobb. He and I have been trading T206's since back in 2006, and this time he just got a generous advantage on our latest trade.

Take care, and my regards to Brian

TED Z
.

Peter_Spaeth · #13 02-20-2016, 09:27 AM

One wonders if PSA and/or SGC deemed it altered before it ended up in a Beckett holder.

Pat R · #14 02-20-2016, 10:35 AM

I still don't see how anyone can say the Cobb is re-backed based on the scans.
The card is in rough shape and shows wear that is consistent with many
cards in that condition. Here's a card in better condition that shows similar
wear on the corner and edges.

MW1 · #15 02-20-2016, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

I still don't see how anyone can say the Cobb is re-backed based on the scans.
The card is in rough shape and shows wear that is consistent with many
cards in that condition.

No, it clearly does not. The edges on your card simply do not compare.

RCMcKenzie · #16 02-20-2016, 01:04 PM

Part of my opinion was based upon the thought that a tpg could easily see a re-backed or re-fronted card in hand with a loop, but y'all have stated that they have already had many slip past them.
This card still looks like a beater with border chipping from the small scan to me, but Leon and Michael may very well be correct. Seems like the would-be forgers would have wanted to make one in better condition if they wanted to make one, but who knows in this hobby..Take care, Rob.

MW1 · #17 02-20-2016, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'll tell you where I'm coming from on this subject....I have never seen a black LENOX back on this Cobb ; and, I have been collecting T206's since Bill Heitman published
his famous book "The Monster". Furthermore, more than a dozen long-time serious T206 collectors tell me the same.

Yet, certain websites claim this Cobb front/back combo has been "confirmed".

If this Cobb that Art M. has posted is as you (and some others) suspect a "fake", then my original contention questioning the existence of this Cobb is justified.

In any event, I have a better understanding now as to why this Cobb with a black LENOX back is claimed to exist.

Incidentally,
I really appreciated Art showing us this Cobb. He and I have been trading T206's since back in 2006, and this time he just got a generous advantage on our latest trade.

Take care, and my regards to Brian

TED Z
.

Ted,

I think we're on the same page here. If there's a legitimate black Lenox Cobb out there, I'd like to see it. My feeling is that this card is the one that has been catalogued by a number of websites.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
CARD IS SOLD......T206 Black Lenox SGC 30	Blunder19	Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T	4	04-25-2011 08:06 PM
WTB T206 Seymour throwing.. looking for a seller for a drum back.. or black lenox	Blunder19	Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T	0	02-06-2011 11:37 PM
ty cobb batt of shoulder t206 nm mt 8 psa sco back- question	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	11	09-02-2008 12:08 AM
FS/ FT: T-206 Schulte (Back View) w/ Black Lenox Back	Archive	Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T	1	05-25-2007 08:56 AM
T206 Red Background Cobb w/ Lenox Back	Archive	Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T	0	01-15-2006 06:52 PM