Some helpful suggestions for new collectors

[egri]

Awesome info Bill, and thanks to everyone who has posted so far.

I'm interested in learning more about how to distinguish forged signatures from real ones. I think I have a pretty good grip on the bigger names that are frequently questioned here, but how do you go about authenticating the bench players and minor stars? Is there anything that is a particular giveaway that a signature is forged?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by egri

Awesome info Bill, and thanks to everyone who has posted so far.

I'm interested in learning more about how to distinguish forged signatures from real ones. I think I have a pretty good grip on the bigger names that are frequently questioned here, but how do you go about authenticating the bench players and minor stars? Is there anything that is a particular giveaway that a signature is forged?

Scott, I am by no means an expert on signatures. I know there are companies that authenticate cards/balls/flats, etc that have been signed, but they are not foolproof. Search on JSA (James Spence) and PSA-DNA certified. While they add their professional opinions, I do not believe that opinion offers any kind of guarantee, which is problematic, in my opinion. That's why, for the most part, I only buy signatures on cards that have been certified by the manufacturer, ie Bowman Chrome prospect autos. These cards are signed in the presence of a company official to guarantee their authenticity. A finite number of the cards exist, and they are unique to the signed variety.

There is a real science behind authenticating signatures. If you are looking to buy a particular autograph, you'd be well served to find an exemplar for that person, and compare the auto you want to the exemplar. The problem is that over time, a person's signature can change. So, that's not foolproof. And though the exemplar might match the auto you're looking at, there are elements that a forensic analyst who specializes in signature authentication will see that you or I would not. They will consider physical evidence (the "flow" and angle of the signature, pen pressure, idiosyncrasies specific to the person's signature, etc), as well as provenance. That's real important when buying am historic signature-provenance. How did the seller come to own that signature? If you have somebody selling a signature of, say, Babe Ruth, and they have a sales receipt from a major auction, and that auction shows that the signature came from the Ruth family, that, then, would be pretty much air-tight provenance that the signature was legitimate.

My recommendation would be to take this question to the posters in our autograph forum.

Autograph forum

I would be very leery of buying signatures from players if I didn't witness them personally. I realize that there are many who are no longer living, and collecting their autographs would be a great addition to a collection. Just be very careful. I'm hoping the people who do this sort of thing on a regular basis will be able to give you some helpful advice on how to proceed.

Good luck!

[KCRfan1]

Valuable information for someone new to the hobby and great reminders for us who have been collecting for a while.

Thank you Bill!

Well thought out and explained.

[egri]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Scott, I am by no means an expert on signatures. I know there are companies that authenticate cards/balls/flats, etc that have been signed, but they are not foolproof. Search on JSA (James Spence) and PSA-DNA certified. While they add their professional opinions, I do not believe that opinion offers any kind of guarantee, which is problematic, in my opinion. That's why, for the most part, I only buy signatures on cards that have been certified by the manufacturer, ie Bowman Chrome prospect autos. These cards are signed in the presence of a company official to guarantee their authenticity. A finite number of the cards exist, and they are unique to the signed variety.

There is a real science behind authenticating signatures. If you are looking to buy a particular autograph, you'd be well served to find an exemplar for that person, and compare the auto you want to the exemplar. The problem is that over time, a person's signature can change. So, that's not foolproof. And though the exemplar might match the auto you're looking at, there are elements that a forensic analyst who specializes in signature authentication will see that you or I would not. They will consider physical evidence (the "flow" and angle of the signature, pen pressure, idiosyncrasies specific to the person's signature, etc), as well as provenance. That's real important when buying am historic signature-provenance. How did the seller come to own that signature? If you have somebody selling a signature of, say, Babe Ruth, and they have a sales receipt from a major auction, and that auction shows that the signature came from the Ruth family, that, then, would be pretty much air-tight provenance that the signature was legitimate.

My recommendation would be to take this question to the posters in our autograph forum.

Autograph forum

I would be very leery of buying signatures from players if I didn't witness them personally. I realize that there are many who are no longer living, and collecting their autographs would be a great addition to a collection. Just be very careful. I'm hoping the people who do this sort of thing on a regular basis will be able to give you some helpful advice on how to proceed.

Good luck!

Thank you for the response Bill; it is very helpful. There is a card I'm looking at buying for my project that I will probably post over on the autograph forum for opinions. I think it is good, but I've been wrong before.


Thanks again. I wish I'd had the good sense to ask for help more often when I was starting out. It would have saved me a lot of grief.

[the 'stache]

You're welcome.

One more piece of advice-if you do end up buying, make sure to have a rock solid contingency plan in place, in case you, the members of our forum, or even an expert, determine the signature has been forged. I would never pay for a high value collectible with cash. I'll reference a discussion Bob E. had earlier on our forum. The short of it is that he was sold a Mickey Mantle (graded) where the slab had been popped and resealed. The card was authentic, but was apparently doctored.

The important thing to take from the discussion is that he made the purchase through American Express, and once he had concrete proof that fraud existed (sending the card in to PSA for a reslab), Amex covered what would have been a loss. I'd have to go back and review the current guidelines for purchasing through Paypal, but I think the same (or a similar) policy holds, provided that you bought the card as a good/service. I know that some members of our forum feel comfortable occasionally sending Paypal as friends & family, as it saves on fees. I trust the members of our forum, and consider many of them friends. But when I buy anything, be it a movie, or a $500 baseball card, if I am using Paypal, I do it via goods and services. I pay extra to cover the fees, so the seller receives the whole amount they are expecting. It's smart business. Communicate with the seller ahead of time that you want to use Paypal, and that you'll do goods & service, but send extra so they don't receive the full amount. I use The fee calculator to tell me how much to send.

Let us know here what you ultimately decide, and, if anything, what you learn about the signature.

Originally Posted by egri

Thank you for the response Bill; it is very helpful. There is a card I'm looking at buying for my project that I will probably post over on the autograph forum for opinions. I think it is good, but I've been wrong before.


Thanks again. I wish I'd had the good sense to ask for help more often when I was starting out. It would have saved me a lot of grief.

[egri]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Let us know here what you ultimately decide, and, if anything, what you learn about the signature.

I won the card this afternoon. With shipping it was only $30.95, and I paid with AmEx so all good on that end. I posted it in the autograph forum asking for opinions, and one guy had a list of five points that he said pointed to it being authentic (creased card, poor pen, common player, personalized, smeared) so I'm very confident that it's real.

With regards to that particular signature, it is of Cardinals outfielder Harry "P-Nuts" Lowrey. I noticed Lowrey either signed autographs as ' "P-Nuts" Lowrey' or "To (fans name) (Best wishes/regards/something similar) Harry "P-Nuts" Lowrey". My guess is the former were obtained in person; the latter TTM, when Lowrey would have had the fan's name in front of him and time to sit down and sign those extra words. In terms of flow and length, it matched up well with the ones on SCN.

[Exhibitman]

Nice idea, 'stache. I would add: EDUCATION!!!!!

Did I stress that enough?

Not just knowing the cards but knowing the market for them. Rare may = obscure or valuable. Just depends.

Humility is another. If anyone thinks they can just jump in and make big lucrative deals I want some of what you are smoking. There are people here who've been doing this for decades and they will confirm that big deals are rare and not on eBay or Craig's list.

I've been a collector and dealer since I was twelve back in the last century and I learn new stuff about cards all the time. The knowledge you acquire over time and with experience enables you to assess a new (to you) card. I recently bought a set of 19th century nonsport cards I'd never seen before. No idea who made them. But I could see after decades of analyzing cards that they were vintage engravings. I flipped the set for nearly 20x what it cost me. My point being that although I'd never seen those cards before I have handled a lot of 19th and early 20th century cards and engravings so I was able to assess the set on the spot.

One more tool to have: your smart phone. I routinely search for cards and prices at shows. It has saved me a lot of money to be able to show a dealer what the card is going for on eBay. Or to confirm for myself what an item looks like and that it is a screaming deal. Case in point: there was a card I literally took off my want list before the last National because one had sold at auction for so much more than I wanted to pay. I found one at the show, same condition, for 40% less. I was able to confirm my recollection of the price via VCP on the spot and picked it up. When it comes to cards Orwell was wrong: ignorance is not bliss.