What happens when JSA changes their mind???

[whiteymet]

Hi All

This card is now being offered in the BST autograph forum. Take a look and PM me if interested.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...42#post1514642

Thanks,

Fred

[brooklynbaseball]

Many years ago, included in an auction was a "holy grail" signed item in a signed set I collect. I won the auction for a bit over $7k and was thrilled. The one thing that bothered me was there is a collector I am in touch with that ALWAYS outbid me on items like this, as his funding far surpasses mine. I contacted him and he gave me the following reason why he passed on bidding (winning) the item. When Jim Spence worked for PSA, he had authenticated the item, and psa had applied a sticker and slabbed the item. When the owner submitted the item to the present auction house, psa decided they did not believe the card was indeed authentic. THEY PAID the owner $2k to remove the card from the holder and remove the sticker. I was shown the stub from the check paid by psa. The auction house then sent the card to JSA, who slabbed the card again. NO MENTION was made of any of this by the auction house. I decided to pass on the item, and the auction house, when faced with the information, cancelled the transaction and supposedly sold the item to the underbidder. It's just how things work in this, and many other hobbies, honor doe$ rarely exist.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

Many years ago, included in an auction was a "holy grail" signed item in a signed set I collect. I won the auction for a bit over $7k and was thrilled. The one thing that bothered me was there is a collector I am in touch with that ALWAYS outbid me on items like this, as his funding far surpasses mine. I contacted him and he gave me the following reason why he passed on bidding (winning) the item. When Jim Spence worked for PSA, he had authenticated the item, and psa had applied a sticker and slabbed the item. When the owner submitted the item to the present auction house, psa decided they did not believe the card was indeed authentic. THEY PAID the owner $2k to remove the card from the holder and remove the sticker. I was shown the stub from the check paid by psa. The auction house then sent the card to JSA, who slabbed the card again. NO MENTION was made of any of this by the auction house. I decided to pass on the item, and the auction house, when faced with the information, cancelled the transaction and supposedly sold the item to the underbidder. It's just how things work in this, and many other hobbies, honor doe$ rarely exist.

Must be more to the story for PSA to shell out that kind of dough!

[Exhibitman]

Looks like the OP is showing a so-called auction LOA. Those GDMF pieces of garbage are not worth the paper they are written on. All they are is a TPA marketing tool. Says right on them that it isn't definitive and they may not even have looked at the item. I bought a signed card with a JSA auction LOA. JSA refused to honor it because it expired. I said fine, lets do a full LOA anyway. They rejected the card. Cost me eighty bucks. My own research indicated that the signature was good. Another TPA agreed and slabbed it.

[Leon]

Hey Adam,
My opinion is the signature is good too. You can send me 80 bucks please . With all of these conversations it's interesting that there are so many dollars flying into the autograph arena. It almost seems like it's gambling. And I thought the grading of cards was bad....

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Looks like the OP is showing a so-called auction LOA. Those GDMF pieces of garbage are not worth the paper they are written on. All they are is a TPA marketing tool. Says right on them that it isn't definitive and they may not even have looked at the item. I bought a signed card with a JSA auction LOA. JSA refused to honor it because it expired. I said fine, lets do a full LOA anyway. They rejected the card. Cost me eighty bucks. My own research indicated that the signature was good. Another TPA agreed and slabbed it.

[sicollector1954]

Hey Brooklyn…that HOF "Goose" front signed was never slabbed the first time. It was just submitted to auction along with others in a complete collection at the time. PSA did not have the COA when it was presented to them….they only had the card. The owner still had the COA. They ended up paying to get the certificate into their hands for their mistake which was mutually agreed upon. The HOF plaque was then taken to JSA who honored it again as genuine the same way they did when they worked for PSA. The card was then apparently slabbed (was a new thing) and sold by a major auction house and the money was used to help put a daughter through college. There were several conference calls involved with Mr. O about this issue/problem and a lot of strong pressure put on the owner of the card by PSA to return the certificate to them so they could "perhaps destroy" it but in the end, they had to pay for their mistake. At one point nearing the conclusion of this mess, they changed their minds about payment (top two people) after it was mutually agreed to with an additional phone call only to find out that a written copy of the agreement signed by another PSA employee to pay for this mistake existed and then they ultimately changed their minds in a hurry and payment was sent. A lot of stress and sleepless nights to be sure. So there is in fact a previous similar situation that has taken place involving JSA but from the other end of the spectrum.

[RichardSimon]

Unrelated to the primary issue but an incident that is worthy of posting here.
I sold a non sports autograph of a prominent person to a dealer who subscribes to my mailing list. He is a regular buyer who submits all his autographs to TPA.
The autograph was declined by PSA. I was certain it was authentic. I showed a scan of the autograph to a close friend/dealer who is well known on this board. He agreed with me about the authenticity of the autograph.
The buyer said if I would cover the cost of a second rejection he would submit the autograph to JSA. If the autograph came back authentic he would pay the authentication fee.
The autograph was authenticated by JSA.
Is one authentication service better than the other? I don't think so.
Should TPA opinions be held up as the hobby "holy grail?" Obviously not.

As Linda Richman would say "Discuss amongst yourselves."

[sicollector1954]

P.S. with no "A" So the card was NEVER slabbed previously…it had a paper COA. I had the card since perhaps 1988 or so and purchased it from a person who said they got it signed in person--then somewhere along the way decided to have the "new" company PSA do a certificate on it around the year 2000 or so. I had acquired the complete gold set at that time including the Foxx/Bancroft/etc. (all others passed with no trouble) but it was time to sell for college funding. Mr. O and I still do not speak…but he knows who I am when passing….I don't submit any autographs to PSA….I could see them not passing anything I submit to them regardless if real or not just by name recognition filled out on their form. Congratulations on a great card--perhaps the only one out there front signed…It sounds like it has found a nice home….daughter is now through college and teaching. And if we are not talking about the same story/card---then I apologize for this rant.

[brooklynbaseball]

Originally Posted by sicollector1954

Hey Brooklyn…that HOF "Goose" front signed was never slabbed the first time. It was just submitted to auction along with others in a complete collection at the time. PSA did not have the COA when it was presented to them….they only had the card. The owner still had the COA. They ended up paying to get the certificate into their hands for their mistake which was mutually agreed upon. The HOF plaque was then taken to JSA who honored it again as genuine the same way they did when they worked for PSA. The card was then apparently slabbed (was a new thing) and sold by a major auction house and the money was used to help put a daughter through college. There were several conference calls involved with Mr. O about this issue/problem and a lot of strong pressure put on the owner of the card by PSA to return the certificate to them so they could "perhaps destroy" it but in the end, they had to pay for their mistake. At one point nearing the conclusion of this mess, they changed their minds about payment (top two people) after it was mutually agreed to with an additional phone call only to find out that a written copy of the agreement signed by another PSA employee to pay for this mistake existed and then they ultimately changed their minds in a hurry and payment was sent. A lot of stress and sleepless nights to be sure. So there is in fact a previous similar situation that has taken place involving JSA but from the other end of the spectrum.

The card had a psa sticker which was removed, the major auction house never let on this information. I obviously must have misspoken about it being slabbed by psa, but that is obviously immaterial to the situation. The card was sold individually, not in a collection (although it could've been submitted that way) and I passed mostly because of the non-disclosure of the auction house. I don't fault the seller at all (you?) for selling it, I merely disagreed with the way the sale was handled. I have had several items I purchased from auction houses fail a tpa opinion, only to have the auction house send it in and the item pass. It's the nature of the beast...

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey Adam,
My opinion is the signature is good too. You can send me 80 bucks please . With all of these conversations it's interesting that there are so many dollars flying into the autograph arena. It almost seems like it's gambling. And I thought the grading of cards was bad....

Uh, oh,, Leon is authenticating autographs now .

[Leon]

Heck, it's yes or no, so I should be able to hit 50% correct. From what I read on this board it might be as good as some who are charging for their opinions. I always say if I ever get into collecting autos it will be on legal docs or maybe checks (which still need to be vetted of course). Thank you for your participation on the board, Richard. I am sure you have helped far more collectors than you know. Great discussions.

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Uh, oh,, Leon is authenticating autographs now .