Payment at card shows?

GasHouseGang · #1 04-12-2016, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksabet

Its just a matter of time before the old guard dies off and these silly practices of "cash only" die with them.

BTW even the saying "cash is king" is so silly and outdated please stop using it...or don't and have everyone else continue to blindly mock you.

You can mock anyone you want, but a lot of dealers have regular jobs, or just deal in the cards for fun on weekends. Having someone bounce a check on you for the best card in your collection could really hurt. Cash is also used at most other types of sales to avoid having to collect sales tax. I've had dealers tell me they would give me a better price if I pay cash.

D.P.Johnson · #2 04-12-2016, 03:57 PM

I once had a buyer ask me if I would accept cash as a form of payment. I thought he was kidding, but his face didn't change. I started to panic, and then quietly said, "Yes." He handed me $200, and I handed him the card and said, "Thank you." He said, "Thank you" back, and then walked away. It was all very odd...

gregr2 · #3 04-12-2016, 04:02 PM

I had a guy on eBay make me a best offer on a card of $5.00 (I was asking $5.50). I accepted and then he asked for my address and proceeded to mail me a $5.00 dollar bill.

packs · #4 04-12-2016, 04:11 PM

If you really want to piss a dealer off ask for a receipt.

buymycards · #5 04-12-2016, 05:06 PM

OK, let's get down to the nitty gritty. This doesn't have anything to do with comfort levels or lack of technical knowledge or chargebacks. It is plain old tax avoidance. (evasion?) The seller probably doesn't have a sales tax license and doesn't pay sales tax on the sale. The seller also probably doesn't report cash sales, so they are tax free.

If you have a sale of $1000 in cash, you have $1000 bucks to work with. If you accept a check, or paypal, or a credit card then it breaks down like this:

$1000 in sales
-15 % in federal income taxes
-5% in state income taxes
-5% in state sales tax
-15% for the employers share and the employees share of social security and medicare
This leaves the dealer with $600 to work with.

That is why dealers only accept cash.

Rich Klein · #6 04-12-2016, 05:11 PM

Not to nitpick but I thought most people would be in the 27 percent fed range

Rich

buymycards · #7 04-12-2016, 05:12 PM

Hi Rich, that may be true.

It may also have something to do with only being able to earn around 15k if you are under age 66 and on social security. Yes - I am old.

Rick

bnorth · #8 04-12-2016, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buymycards

OK, let's get down to the nitty gritty. This doesn't have anything to do with comfort levels or lack of technical knowledge or chargebacks. It is plain old tax avoidance. (evasion?) The seller probably doesn't have a sales tax license and doesn't pay sales tax on the sale. The seller also probably doesn't report cash sales, so they are tax free.

If you have a sale of $1000 in cash, you have $1000 bucks to work with. If you accept a check, or paypal, or a credit card then it breaks down like this:

$1000 in sales
-15 % in federal income taxes
-5% in state income taxes
-5% in state sales tax
-15% for the employers share and the employees share of social security and medicare
This leaves the dealer with $600 to work with.

That is why dealers only accept cash.

+1 As a small business owner for most of my life I fricken hate the POS that do not have whatever license is necessary and does not pay their fair share of taxes. For those of us that actually pay taxes and follow the rules it is very hard to compete.

pokerplyr80 · #9 04-12-2016, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buymycards

OK, let's get down to the nitty gritty. This doesn't have anything to do with comfort levels or lack of technical knowledge or chargebacks. It is plain old tax avoidance. (evasion?) The seller probably doesn't have a sales tax license and doesn't pay sales tax on the sale. The seller also probably doesn't report cash sales, so they are tax free.

If you have a sale of $1000 in cash, you have $1000 bucks to work with. If you accept a check, or paypal, or a credit card then it breaks down like this:

$1000 in sales
-15 % in federal income taxes
-5% in state income taxes
-5% in state sales tax
-15% for the employers share and the employees share of social security and medicare
This leaves the dealer with $600 to work with.

That is why dealers only accept cash.

I would hope that those dealers that are paying income tax are only required to do so on the profit of the sale, not the entire transaction. If the mentioned $1,000 card was purchased for say 800, taxes should only be required on the 200 difference.

steve B · #10 04-12-2016, 06:04 PM

Yep, when I was doing a fair bit of selling on Ebay I always declared a small profit as a hobby business. I wasn't allowed to claim a loss that way, but it made the book keeping nice and simple.
I suppose technically any leftover stuff that I'd gotten cheap and hadn't gotten around to selling was also profit, but determining value would have been a big challenge.

Michael B · #11 04-14-2016, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I would hope that those dealers that are paying income tax are only required to do so on the profit of the sale, not the entire transaction. If the mentioned $1,000 card was purchased for say 800, taxes should only be required on the 200 difference.

It would be less than that. You would get the itemized deductions for the cost of the item, cost of the table/booth, travel to the show including gas and tolls, hotel, food and any other ancillary expenses. It is easy to reduce the net profit by taking every deduction allowed. Most dealers are cash flow businesses. With cash flow you get the deduction when you sell the item. You cannot deduct the cost of the item purchased if it is done in a prior year. Don't forget, the I.R.S. encourages tax avoidance. It is tax evasion they don't like.

I have done one or two shows a year max and usually made just a little. At the same time I was also selling on ebay and did declare ALL of the income every year. It is easier to do that than try to play fast and loose.

D.P.Johnson · #12 04-12-2016, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregr2

I had a guy on eBay make me a best offer on a card of $5.00 (I was asking $5.50). I accepted and then he asked for my address and proceeded to mail me a $5.00 dollar bill.

Yeah, but the important question is: Did you send him the card???
(And, was the card sent priority mail with tracking and insurance???)...

...

Luke · #13 04-12-2016, 09:11 PM

It's important to acknowledge that most "dealers" are collectors who set up at shows a few times a year. It's tough to justify the expense of setting up the infra-structure needed to take credit cards for something you just do a couple times a year for fun.

For the last couple years, I have set up at a small show twice. So far, everyone has just paid cash, but if they didn't have cash or want to use Paypal, I guess I would lose the sale. Even in those cases, it would be pretty easy for the potential buyer to send me a check, or send Paypal the next day, or meet up with cash.

It never occurred to me before this thread to try and pay with anything but cash honestly.

Laxcat · #14 04-12-2016, 09:15 PM

I have recently added CC. Haven't tried it at a show yet. Paypal is super easy with the prevalence of smart phones. If you want the card, bring the cash or make sure there is a bank within driving distance.

kmac32 · #15 04-12-2016, 09:30 PM

Never thought about paypal for a card show but makes sense as you pay other things with it. You do have more bargaining power with cash.

Duluth Eskimo · #16 04-12-2016, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

You can mock anyone you want, but a lot of dealers have regular jobs, or just deal in the cards for fun on weekends. Having someone bounce a check on you for the best card in your collection could really hurt. Cash is also used at most other types of sales to avoid having to collect sales tax. I've had dealers tell me they would give me a better price if I pay cash.

+++++1386. Everything is simple when their money is not at risk. They treat all dealers like they're supposed to be set up like Target or something. Most people do this for the enjoyment, not to be big timed by people that don't have the $ for their purchases. As someone said before, there are NO fees on PayPal F&F which protects the seller against charge backs. Once again, money talks and bullshit walks.

vthobby · #17 04-12-2016, 10:43 PM

Throw_Money.jpg

Peace, Mike

AGuinness · #18 04-12-2016, 11:10 PM

To read some people take the "my way or the highway" approach is disappointing and seems a parallel to the debate these days about players showing emotion on the field, with the old timers lamenting these young whipper snappers.

In the end, for buyers AND sellers, the more options you can offer when it comes to buying (whether as the buyer or seller), the more opportunities there will be for sales.

I'd only hope that sellers would understand that not everybody walks around with large sums of cash, much less medium sums, and that any potential sale could help foster the baseball card community and the passion of a collector.

Rich Klein · #19 04-13-2016, 08:12 AM

I actually had at the last show some customer breathe a sigh of relief when I told him I would take pay pal f and f. He had enough on his to pay but believe it or not, he never thought of Pay pal as an option to pay at a show. Yes, many buyers do believe cash is the only way.

Matt; We'll talk about your CC later.

Rich

vintagetoppsguy · #20 04-13-2016, 09:09 AM

There have been a few dealers come forth saying they accept PP at shows. This is just as easy for a buyer to dispute as a credit card charge. If a dealer accepts PP at a show, there is no proof that the merchandise actually exchanged hands. With an eBay order or online order, there is delivery (or signature) confirmation that shows the buyer received the item. In person, at a show, there is no proof that the buyer received the item. All they have to do is file a dispute with PayPal and say they never received it and there is actually no proof that they did. PP F&F is even easier to dispute. All they have to say is that they sent it to the wrong person. If you're a dealer and choose to ignore this, then that's on you. That said, I wouldn't worry about smaller purchases, but I would never take PP or CC at a show for a $6K card.

For buyers that can't understand why some dealers don't take CCs, PP, or other forms of payment, a charge back is a huge hit on a $6K purchase. For the dealer that operates on a 10% profit margin, he has to sell $60K worth of inventory just to break even on that loss. If he operates on a 20% profit margin, he has to sell $30K. And so on, but hopefully you get the point. Why would a dealer make themselves vulnerable like that? Makes no sense. It’s easier just to not take those forms of payment. Are the dealers going to lose some sales? Absolutely. But there will always, always, always be another buyer right behind the other one that’s willing to pay cash.

If you still can't understand it, think of it this way. If you were to lose your wallet, would you rather it contain $6K cash, or a credit card with a $6K available credit limit? Of course you would say the credit card, right? Why? Because you wouldn't be responsible for any fraudulent charges. You would just dispute them. On the other hand if you lose a wallet with $6K cash, you'll likely never see that again. If you understand this simple concept, then how in the world can you blame a dealer for not accepting a $6K credit card charge and leave himself vulnerable to a charge back?

Laxcat · #21 04-13-2016, 09:50 AM

As an addition. If you want to haggle price it HAS to be a cash payment.

AGuinness · #22 04-13-2016, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If you understand this simple concept, then how in the world can you blame a dealer for not accepting a $6K credit card charge and leave himself vulnerable to a charge back?

I understand this concept, but your argument seems to indicate that the seller should take on all the risk. EVERYONE takes a risk in any transaction, and we all know the inherent risks in collectibles, including forgeries, alterations, etc.

I'd turn your question around... how in the world can you blame a buyer for not wanting to pay with $6,000 in cash and leaving him or herself no recourse if they were to get scammed?

That's not to mention the risk for the seller to be given counterfeit currency. Nothing is foolproof.

Quora.com notes the rate of chargebacks is less than .1 percent for transactions where the card is present. Based on that, making a decision to not process cards at shows for the fear of a chargeback is like not going on a tropical vacation because you're afraid of flying. Ill informed at best.

The larger antagonistic attitude on this issue also hits home how I've felt at some card shops and with some sellers at shows. I'll never be the person with $6k in my pocket or in my checking account to spend at a show, but I would hope that purchases of any level would be welcome and that sellers would want to work with me on making a sale happen. The "my way or the highway" attitude is counterproductive and those sellers could use a reminder that they potentially aren't just turning away one sale, but perhaps repeat business. Sure, you might sell that $6,000 to another willing buyer, but you also might have lost many thousands more by not working with the first one.

ksabet · #23 04-13-2016, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

You can mock anyone you want, but a lot of dealers have regular jobs, or just deal in the cards for fun on weekends. Having someone bounce a check on you for the best card in your collection could really hurt. Cash is also used at most other types of sales to avoid having to collect sales tax. I've had dealers tell me they would give me a better price if I pay cash.

I wasnt mocking. And I wasnt advocating checks or Paypal or anything, just simply stating that "Cash Only" is a silly, dated practice. And as stated above, we all know the greatest motivation for the "Cash Only" is tax evasion not worry.

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