Why is Jackie Robinson in the HOF?

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by Prince Hal

Jackie Robinson a PC choice?!? That's just dumber than dumb. Watch the new Ken Burns documentary and get a little smarter please.

I believe its a fair question ask with out others getting snarky over it. I may not agree with him but its worth discussing. If you disagree, then "get a little smarter" and provide facts to support your argument. This is a question that will be asked by folks for years to come and having a supporting argument seems like a logical idea.

[sbfinley]

Because he played the first two seasons of his career under arguably more pressure to perform than anyone else in the history of the game and was amazing. Had he buckled or shown weakness physically or mentally, he along with the others who played sparingly in 47' (Doby, Thompson, and Brown) would have likely not returned in 1948 and the integration movement would probably have been stifled for another decade. The entire history of postwar baseball would have to be rewritten. He is without question one of the three most important individuals in the history of the game and because of this his career stats, which are Hall of Fame worthy even in a protracted decade of playing, are immaterial.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Because he played the first two seasons of his career under arguably more pressure to perform than anyone else in the history of the game and was amazing. Had he buckled or shown weakness physically or mentally, he along with the others who played sparingly in 47' (Doby, Thompson, and Brown) would have likely not returned in 1948 and the integration movement would probably have been stifled for another decade. The entire history of postwar baseball would have to be rewritten. He is without question one of the three most important individuals in the history of the game and because of this his career stats, which are Hall of Fame worthy even in a protracted decade of playing, are immaterial.

+1

If Jackie Robinson had failed, Monte Irvin and Satchel Paige would have never gotten to the major leagues. Hank Aaron, Ernie Banks, Roberto Clemente and Willie Mays, among others, would not have had the chance they did. He also was, arguably, the impetus for the entire Civil Rights movement of the 1960s.

Add to the above, that he was one hell of a player, and the entire package exudes "Hall of Famer".

To me, Jackie Robinson and Babe Ruth are the two most important players in the entire history of baseball.

Steve

[celoknob]

Why does the OP continue to argue that induction is only based on statistics when he has quoted the rules that state integrity, sportsmanship and character are all considerations? With all that, even if you are going to only consider stats how could you not consider the years he lost because he was not even allowed on the field. And then to call this PC? Yes, that will inflame people and it should.

If anything his induction to the HOF in 1962 was anti-PC. Ever heard of Selma, Freedom Rides, Birmingham bombings, Bull Conner, ravaging dogs and fire hoses, segregation, lynching. A black man could not even stay in most hotels or eat in a restaurant, get a taxi, a decent job etc. etc. Most of these things were still going on or were still in the future in 1962. JR was a hero and first rate HOFer for overcoming these overwhelming obstacles, not to mention still a great player.

His integrity, sportsmanship and character are second to none in the HOF and the Hall would be a joke if he was not there. And yes, I think it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise unless you simply have not learned anything about race in America, especially up through the 1960s and can then dismiss these powerful events as "PC".

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by celoknob

Why does the OP continue to argue that induction is only based on statistics when he has quoted the rules that state integrity, sportsmanship and character are all considerations? With all that, even if you are going to only consider stats how could you not consider the years he lost because he was not even allowed on the field. And then to call this PC? Yes, that will inflame people and it should.

If anything his induction to the HOF in 1962 was anti-PC. Ever heard of Selma, Freedom Rides, Birmingham bombings, Bull Conner, ravaging dogs and fire hoses, segregation, lynching. A black man could not even stay in most hotels or eat in a restaurant, get a taxi, a decent job etc. etc. Most of these things were still going on or were still in the future in 1962. JR was a hero and first rate HOFer for overcoming these overwhelming obstacles, not to mention still a great player.

His integrity, sportsmanship and character are second to none in the HOF and the Hall would be a joke if he was not there. And yes, I think it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise unless you simply have not learned anything about race in America, especially up through the 1960s and can then dismiss these powerful events as "PC".

Oh brother.....

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by celoknob

Why does the OP continue to argue that induction is only based on statistics when he has quoted the rules that state integrity, sportsmanship and character are all considerations? With all that, even if you are going to only consider stats how could you not consider the years he lost because he was not even allowed on the field. And then to call this PC? Yes, that will inflame people and it should.

If anything his induction to the HOF in 1962 was anti-PC. Ever heard of Selma, Freedom Rides, Birmingham bombings, Bull Conner, ravaging dogs and fire hoses, segregation, lynching. A black man could not even stay in most hotels or eat in a restaurant, get a taxi, a decent job etc. etc. Most of these things were still going on or were still in the future in 1962. JR was a hero and first rate HOFer for overcoming these overwhelming obstacles, not to mention still a great player.

His integrity, sportsmanship and character are second to none in the HOF and the Hall would be a joke if he was not there. And yes, I think it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise unless you simply have not learned anything about race in America, especially up through the 1960s and can then dismiss these powerful events as "PC".

Guy, why don't you read what I wrote in previous posts. No indication of PC was brought up during his playing time.

PC was brought up for the people who would make comments such as you did bringing race into play as it was bound to happen.

Last time I heard everyone was entitled to their own opinion. I won't be swayed by people just because nobody is going to agree with mine. I simply made a debatable argument for curiosity sake as I figured it would get quite a few comments. And not many other subjects on the front page right now.

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Guy, why don't you read what I wrote in previous posts. No indication of PC was brought up during his playing time.

PC was brought up for the people who would make comments such as you did bringing race into play as it was bound to happen.

Last time I heard everyone was entitled to their own opinion. I won't be swayed by people just because nobody is going to agree with mine. I simply made a debatable argument for curiosity sake as I figured it would get quite a few comments. And not many other subjects on the front page right now.

Josh,

If you weren't around during Jackie's heyday and lived in the '50's and '60's then I don't know what to tell you, for many of us what Jackie accomplished was A BIG DEAL. BIG TIME. HUGE. Stats won't cover any of that.

Carry on.

[darwinbulldog]

1947: Rookie of the Year.
1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953: Top 10 NL player every year (wins above replacement), including 4 consecutive years as one of the top 2 players in the NL

Who else had this good a 7-year run during Jackie's career?

Ted Williams and Stan Musial. That's the whole list. If you want to include players whose careers overlapped a bit but didn't do as much during Jackie's career per se, you can add Mantle, Mays, and Aaron. But then that's it.

So Jackie wasn't better than Williams, Musial, Mantle, Mays, and Aaron. You might say the same of DiMaggio and Gehrig. Why are they in the Hall of Fame? And I don't want any P.C. B.S. on account of my questioning the credentials of an Italian-American and a man with a debilitating disease.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Guy, why don't you read what I wrote in previous posts. No indication of PC was brought up during his playing time.

PC was brought up for the people who would make comments such as you did bringing race into play as it was bound to happen.

Last time I heard everyone was entitled to their own opinion. I won't be swayed by people just because nobody is going to agree with mine. I simply made a debatable argument for curiosity sake as I figured it would get quite a few comments. And not many other subjects on the front page right now.

Josh, we've all read what you wrote in your previous posts, or at least I have. The reason people are "bringing race into play" is because it's a central part of the reasons why Jackie Robinson is in the HOF, and if you don't understand that, then I don't know what else to say to you. You asked why Robinson is in the HOF given his career stats, and numerous people have explained why:
1) He did not debut in the major leagues until age 28, around the midpoint of most players' careers, because racial discrimination kept him and all other black players out;
2) When he did break the color barrier, he endured absolutely horrific abuse for several years, but he did it with grace and class, refusing to let it break him. As others have noted, it was far from a foregone conclusion that Robinson would be successful, and if he had allowed the racial abuse he endured to drive him out of baseball, the history of the postwar game might have been very different;
3) Robinson was a legitimately great player for the 10 years he did play in the major leagues. As others have noted, if he had played 20 years instead of 10, he would have probably gotten close to 3000 hits and some of the other milestones you mentioned.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion; I don't think anybody is denying that. But that doesn't mean that everyone is entitled to have their opinion accepted without question, if other people have legitimate reasons to think otherwise. Asking why Jackie Robinson is in the Hall of Fame, but then not wanting race to be part of the discussion (as you appear to be doing), is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by celoknob

Why does the OP continue to argue that induction is only based on statistics when he has quoted the rules that state integrity, sportsmanship and character are all considerations? With all that, even if you are going to only consider stats how could you not consider the years he lost because he was not even allowed on the field. And then to call this PC? Yes, that will inflame people and it should.

If anything his induction to the HOF in 1962 was anti-PC. Ever heard of Selma, Freedom Rides, Birmingham bombings, Bull Conner, ravaging dogs and fire hoses, segregation, lynching. A black man could not even stay in most hotels or eat in a restaurant, get a taxi, a decent job etc. etc. Most of these things were still going on or were still in the future in 1962. JR was a hero and first rate HOFer for overcoming these overwhelming obstacles, not to mention still a great player.

His integrity, sportsmanship and character are second to none in the HOF and the Hall would be a joke if he was not there. And yes, I think it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise unless you simply have not learned anything about race in America, especially up through the 1960s and can then dismiss these powerful events as "PC".

And he was on some really nice cards



ETA: By most accounts baseball was JR's worst sport at UCLA. He would have been a great NFL running back. I think one of the most apt comparisons for JR would be Rickey Henderson. He made the majors at 20. Joe Morgan also has been mentioned. He made the show at 19 and stuck at 21. Some of that is WWII and while I don't believe in crediting players with speculative stats for military missing time I don't believe they are to be penalized in HOF consideration either as a result of service (far from it on the character part of the equation). He qualified without reservation on the eligibility test for consideration for the HOF: he had the ten seasons met. And he was voted in by the electors. End of story. But there is more to consider. One cannot ignore the race issue. He had to go to Hawaii in 1941 to play semi-pro ball in Honolulu, was on the KC Monarchs in 1945, and spent an unnecessary year in the minors in 1946, all due to race. If he'd come up in 1941 or 1945 and had his ROY caliber year and two more peak years would that have made a difference to the OP? How much accumulation is enough? The discussion is fair, the verdict against his induction is not. I can name a dozen really great players who were cut down in their primes by injury or death or military service who deserve to be in the Hall of FAME. Not the Hall of STATS. Would the HOF be complete without Robinson, Puckett, Koufax, Dean, etc., or would it be missing huge chunks of baseball history?

Is it better to burn out or to fade away?

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by celoknob

Why does the OP continue to argue that induction is only based on statistics when he has quoted the rules that state integrity, sportsmanship and character are all considerations? With all that, even if you are going to only consider stats how could you not consider the years he lost because he was not even allowed on the field. And then to call this PC? Yes, that will inflame people and it should.

If anything his induction to the HOF in 1962 was anti-PC. Ever heard of Selma, Freedom Rides, Birmingham bombings, Bull Conner, ravaging dogs and fire hoses, segregation, lynching. A black man could not even stay in most hotels or eat in a restaurant, get a taxi, a decent job etc. etc. Most of these things were still going on or were still in the future in 1962. JR was a hero and first rate HOFer for overcoming these overwhelming obstacles, not to mention still a great player.

His integrity, sportsmanship and character are second to none in the HOF and the Hall would be a joke if he was not there. And yes, I think it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise unless you simply have not learned anything about race in America, especially up through the 1960s and can then dismiss these powerful events as "PC".

+1

This Giants' fan thinks that Jackie Robinson was one of the two most important people in baseball history... Babe and Jackie. Do I think others were better? Sure. I'd take Willie Mays above anybody. But before Jackie, people like Josh Gibson (who would have been a lock to be a star player) were banished from the game. Jackie not only broke the barrier, but did it in a way to allow others to follow in his wake. He performed at a high level for his shortened career.

For these reason alone, it's a (forgive the cross-sport reference) slam dunk.

...and the reason there's more than the regular dose of passion, is that "pc" is often a code word for those that discriminate. I'm certainly not accusing the OP of that, but he should be aware that it's used often in more than an innocent context.