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#1
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yeah understood.....so good defenses still help a Pitchers era more than people realize...i think hitter hits .100 better with a drawn in infield |
#2
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mid50s, you seem to be conflating the OP's posts with our responses. The "what-ifs" are in the OP's original scenario.
He's since conceded that the runner is on 3rd only because of an error. We were the ones who said defensive positioning is not a factor, and was not to be taken into consideration, in determining whether the run was earned or unearned -- that was a key part of the OP's question. Assumptions as to whether or not a runner would have advanced are not fuzzy supposition, they are the obligation of the official scorer, and any assumption must be made in the pitcher's favor. In this scenario, the runner is safe at 2nd perhaps/probably because of the error (we agree with you that there's insufficient detail in the way the play was described), but definitively safe at 3rd only because of the error. Even if the runner is adjudged to have reached 2nd safely without the error, it seems clear that the scorer cannot assume he would score from 2nd on a one-out single (not two outs, if we're reading the original post correctly). And of course, if in the scorer's judgment "ordinary effort" should have put out the runner attempting to steal, then the question is moot, because in reconstructing the inning without the errors, there's no longer any baserunner at all. Please consult MLB rule 9.16. "In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors... giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play." That doesn't seem merely "quasi-accurate." 9.16 (c) No run shall be earned when scored by a runner whose presence on the bases is prolonged by an error, if such runner would have been put out by errorless play. (d) No run shall be earned when the scoring runner’s advance has been aided by an error... if in the official scorer’s judgment the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay. (f ) Whenever a fielding error occurs, the pitcher shall be given the benefit of the doubt in determining to which bases any runners would have advanced had the fielding of the defensive team been errorless. Again, a convincing argument would persuade us we're wrong, but it'd be nice to hear a verdict from one or more of the fellows on board who do in fact work as official scorers... Wish we'd had a more interesting topic for post #400...
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#3
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well...after reviewing some rules as you suggested it appears this ENTIRE CONVERSATION may be moot, lol.
someone please feel free to correct me if I'm interpreting this incorrectly. so the intial condition was that a runner reached 3rd because of a wild throw while he was attempting to steal 2nd. MLB rule 9.12.a.5 An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 9.12 (Rule 10.12). (a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder: (5) whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely, when in the scorer’s judgment a good throw would have put out the runner, unless such wild throw is made attempting to prevent a stolen base; so if I'm reading that correctly, no error was actually committed, thus the runner, having reached 3rd via the overthrow and subsequently scoring on the single would be considered an earned run. again, feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted something.
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#4
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#5
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mid50s raised a valid and salient point (9.12.a.5) we'd overlooked, but Jim65 (thank you, sir) beats us to a rebuttal.
9.12 (a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder: (1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw)... prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases... (5) whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely, when in the scorer’s judgment a good throw would have put out the runner, unless such wild throw is made attempting to prevent a stolen base; (6) whose wild throw in attempting to prevent a runner’s advance permits that runner or any other runner to advance one or more bases beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild; and (d) The official scorer shall not charge an error against: (1) the catcher when the catcher, after receiving the pitch, makes a wild throw attempting to prevent a stolen base, unless the wild throw permits the stealing runner to advance one or more extra bases or permits any other runner to advance one or more bases; (2) any fielder who makes a wild throw if in the scorer’s judgment the runner would not have been put out with ordinary effort by a good throw, unless such wild throw permits any runner to advance beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild; So mid50s, you are correct that no error is charged on the overthrow allowing the steal of 2nd -- however, an error is charged (or should be) on the runner's advance to 3rd as a result of the overthrow. Because the runner is on 3rd as the result of an error, and not merely safe at 2nd, the run he scores on an ensuing single is unearned. The run is earned if he scores, as Jim65 posits, on an ensuing home run (or, we'd think, on any extra-base hit).
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#6
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The unearned run in the dead ball era is the principle reason that the ERAs are so low. With more fielding errors a higher percentage of runs are unearned in that era. It is not that the pitchers were uniformly awesome or that the hitters were terrible. The gloves were bad and statistically the fielding was "little leagueish".
What has always bothered me a little is the extra base on a throwing error vs the extra out provided to the hitting team on a dropped fly ball. In the second case (dropped ball providing a four out inning essentially) the hitting team can score 15 runs in the inning after the error on what would have been the third out and all the subsequent runs in that inning are unearned. In the first case (as in the scenario presented) the extra base provides an opportunity for the runner on third to score and be unearned if he wouldn't have scored from second before the third out, but subsequent runs in the inning would or could be earned I believe. But if he is on third base as a result of the errant throw and the next batter hits a home run, I believe the run from third would be earned as he would have scored anyway from second on the home run. Other scenarios exist where one has to consider all the events of the inning before determining if some or all of the runs are unearned. Another conundrum in my opinion is the passed ball vs the wild pitch, both of which result in an unearned base if you will. The passed ball is on the catcher, but is not an error. The wild pitch is on the pitcher, but is not an error. I do not believe that either can result in an unearned run, as in the scenario provided here where the extra base throwing error can result in an unearned run. Furthermore at times to distnguish between a wild pitch and a passed ball can be somewhat arbitrary, but I don't think it matters with respect to unearned runs. Disclaimer: I have not read the rule book in decades and if any of my conjecture is inaccurate, so be it. The general topic however is interesting for discussion.
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