T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive

sreader3 · #1 04-29-2016, 11:30 AM

Hi Ted,

Sorry for the belated response. You've convinced me that Ames is a Group A guy. So here is an updated 460 series profile on which I hope we agree:

Group A:
Ames (Arms High) – Young (Glove Shows)
(consists of 29 350/460 regular print subjects -- your Group A minus super prints)

Group B:
Berger – Wiltse (Pitching)
(consists of 28 350/460 regular print subjects – your Group B)

Group C:
Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves) – Wiltse (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 22 460-only subjects not printed with P42 and not part of your "Exclusive 12")

Group D:
Chance (Portrait Yellow Background) – Mathewson (Dark Cap)
(consists of 6 350/460 super prints)

Group E:
Bergen (Catching) – Seymour (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 12 460-only subjects printed with P42)

Group F:
Crandall (Portrait with Cap) – Wheat
(consists of your “Exclusive 12” 460-only subjects)

* * *

Subject Composition for Backs Printed in 460 Series:

American Beauty 460: B, C, E, F
Broad Leaf 460: A, D
Cycle 460: A, B, C, D, E, F
El Principe de Gales: A, B, C, D, E, F
Hindu (Red): A, D, F
Lenox (Black): A, B, C, D, E
Lenox (Brown): B, E
Old Mill: A, B, C, D, E, F
Piedmont 460/25: A, B, C, D, E, F
Piedmont 460/42: A, B, D, E
Polar Bear: A, B, C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/25: A, C, D, E
Sweet Caporal 460/30: C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 No Overstrike: A, D, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 Overstrike: A, B, C, D, E, F
Tolstoi: A, B, C, D, E, F
Uzit: B, C, E, F

Thanks.

Scot

(Note 1: Of course, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear and Tolstoi were earlier-printed with subjects beyond those in the listed groups).

(Note 2: And, naturally, mutual exclusivity attaches with respect to backs which have none of Groups A-F in common).

tedzan · #2 04-29-2016, 11:13 PM

Hi Scot

I like the way you presented the 460 series profile. And, it all looks good to me.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

sreader3 · #3 04-30-2016, 03:56 AM

Thanks Ted.

I'm not 100% sure about Bergen's availability with P42 (not sure where you are on that), but we can leave him in Group E for now.

Scot

tedzan · #4 04-30-2016, 08:00 AM

Hi Scot

I too, am uncertain about Bergen.

My records dating back to 2006 indicate that his card was confirmed with Piedmont #42.

Then sometime (circa..2008) Bergen was unconfirmed. Then again, he was confirmed in 2010. But, I cannot find who reported this in 2010.

Incidently, with the exception of Overall & Schaefer, the other 10 guys are all New York based players. Is this a coincidence, or by design ?

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

TED Z
.

sreader3 · #5 04-30-2016, 09:33 AM

Hi Ted,

There are two ways we can confirm Bergen as a Group E guy (and not a Group C guy) -- (1) P42 or (2) Brown Lenox. I'm not holding my breath a Brown Lenox will pop up though. The other thing is that with Bergen in Group E we have 12 subjects in the group, which is a 2x multiple of Group D (super prints) and the same number as in Group F (Exclusive 12). This would seem to make sense from a printing perspective.

I don't think the NY heavy composition of Group E is a coincidence, but I don't have a great theory on that at the moment.

Take care,

Scot

tedzan · #6 04-30-2016, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,

There are two ways we can confirm Bergen as a Group E guy (and not a Group C guy) -- (1) P42 or (2) Brown Lenox. I'm not holding my breath a Brown Lenox will pop up though. The other thing is that with Bergen in Group E we have 12 subjects in the group, which is a 2x multiple of Group D (super prints) and the same number as in Group F (Exclusive 12). This would seem to make sense from a printing perspective.

I don't think the NY heavy composition of Group E is a coincidence, but I don't have a great theory on that at the moment.

Take care,

Scot

Scot

If I understand what you are saying regarding Bergen with a brown LENOX back, it should be proof that he indeed was also printed with PIEDMONT 42....if Bergen
is found with a brown LENOX. Since, it appears that there is a coincidence between PIEDMONT 42's and brown LENOX cards in the 460-only series.

460-only series subjects with PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 and brown LENOX cards......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy) ..................Brown LENOX
Latham .............................Brown LENOX
Marquard (follow thru) ........Brown LENOX
Merkle (throwing) ...............Brown LENOX
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait) ..................Brown LENOX
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap) ............Brown LENOX

TED Z
.

sreader3 · #7 04-30-2016, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

If I understand what you are saying regarding Bergen with a brown LENOX back, it should be proof that he indeed was also printed with PIEDMONT 42....if Bergen
is found with a brown LENOX. Since, it appears that there is a coincidence between PIEDMONT 42's and brown LENOX cards in the 460-only series.

Precisely.

Group E subjects were printed with both P42 and Brown Lenox. Group C subjects weren't printed with either P42 or Brown Lenox. Thus, if Bergen is found with either P42 or Brown Lenox, he is Group E and was printed with both. (Whether he SURVIVED with both is of course another question).

sreader3 · #8 05-02-2016, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

460-only series subjects with PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 and brown LENOX cards......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy) ..................Brown LENOX
Latham .............................Brown LENOX
Marquard (follow thru) ........Brown LENOX
Merkle (throwing) ...............Brown LENOX
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait) ..................Brown LENOX
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap) ............Brown LENOX

.

Speaking of six, your above post shows that exactly six of the 12 Group E guys are so far confirmed with Brown Lenox. It is possible I suppose that Group E needs to be further bifurcated into two subgroups of six each, half printed with Brown Lenox and half not, although I think it's more likely that the to-date confirmation of six Group E guys is mere coincidence. Time may tell.

tedzan · #9 11-20-2016, 04:02 PM

In light of the 2 long anticipated, and recently discovered, rare T206 front/back combos** in the 350/460 series,
I'm reviving this thread in search of more missing rare T206's in this series.
I'll start this search with red HINDU cards.

Thirty-one of the 35 subjects in the 350/460 series in Group A have been confirmed with the red HINDU back.
These 4 remaining subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)

If anyone on this forum has (or has seen) any one of these 4 cards, please show or tell us of them. Thanks, in advance.

** Note....the 2 recently discovered T206's referred to above are: Tinker (bat off shoulder) / PIEDMONT 460, Fac. #42
and Donlin (bat) / LENOX

A following post here searches for the missing BROAD LEAF 460 cards.

TED Z
.

tedzan · #10 11-20-2016, 08:01 PM

The BROAD LEAF 460 cards exist ONLY in the 350/460 series. Only 35 of the 63 subjects in this series
were theoretically printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 backs.

There are 8 subjects from Group A that have yet to be discovered. I expect these T206's will eventually
be found with BROAD LEAF 460 backs......

Ames (hands above head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Donlin (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)

If you have (or know of) any of these 8 guys with BROAD LEAF 460 backs, please show or tell us of them.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

tedzan · #11 05-02-2016, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,

The other thing is that with Bergen in Group E we have 12 subjects in the group, which is a 2x multiple of Group D (super prints) and the same number as in Group F (Exclusive 12). This would seem to make sense from a printing perspective.

Take care,

Scot

Hi Scot

Thanks for mentioning the "12 factor" ......which I think it is inherent in the series structure of the T206 set. This factor has become increasingly apparent
to me since I completed my 2nd T206 set in 2004.

In your book, "Inside T206", you further refined this factor by introducing the factor of 6 in the printing structure of the T206 cards (i.e., six Super-Prints,
6 - horizontal T206's, etc.).

TED Z
.

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