Signed T206: Was Rube Marquard's Wife Signing For Him?

theshleps · #1 05-11-2016, 09:23 AM

marquard 14.jpg
is this good enough? otherwise I have to go to the vault. opinions?

Republicaninmass · #2 05-11-2016, 09:34 AM

Does anyone think after 40 years of signing t206s, that Rube didn't know the length of his own name? I'd think any that are not signed on the same plane are wife signed, which has been almost 100% of the examplars with the straight R

ATP · #3 05-11-2016, 10:18 AM

Here's an example of what I would presume is probably near the end of Rube's long life. Note that he still makes an attempt at making the first "R" all in one circular motion, and connects the R to the u fluidly without lifting the pen. And then there's the M...

I was a notary for ten years and have witnessed more signatures than most would in ten lifetimes. Sometimes I notarized the same document every month for the same person for many years. Their signature would change over time, that's is a fact known to all of us, it happens with our own name. But, one thing that always seemed to be a constant and amazed me was how it started, and to some degree how it ended. The middle changed all the time, letters shortened, letters omitted, form falls off, even slant may change some, but they would pretty much always start it the same way for the first letter or two.

7nohitter · #4 05-11-2016, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theshleps

Attachment 230796
is this good enough? otherwise I have to go to the vault. opinions?

In my opinion, this is the wife...look at the M, The stick R and the q.

ATP · #5 05-11-2016, 11:21 AM

Here is one other example of a "Stick R" style Marquard and the same card signed with what I would consider his normal signature. Again, I have yet to see the "Stick R" style on anything but a card. This is a good comparison reference because these TCMA cards weren't out on the market until later in 1974 I believe, so we are looking at roughly only a five or six year window that both could be signed. To me, again, these clearly do not appear to be in the same hand.

T206Collector · #6 05-11-2016, 11:57 AM

How about how he changed the "P" to start "Phone" and "Pikesville"?

ATP · #7 05-11-2016, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

How about how he changed the "P" to start "Phone" and "Pikesville"?

Interesting, thanks for taking the time to post that. It's hard to see for certain but it still looks like it was completed with one fluid stroke (up and down vs circular), and no lifting of the pen for the top.

Paul you have probably looked at more signed Marquard cards than anyone out there I so certainly respect your opinion and I really appreciate the active discussion on this one. What are your thoughts (I would love to hear from some of the other autograph pros on here if they are willing to weigh in as well regarding these) on the two TCMA cards I posted above, that certainly had to be signed pretty close from a time perspective. Do they look like they are in the same hand? To me, they don't at all. Maybe I am just seeing what I want to see because I have been positing this for over a year now, but they just look completely different to me and not something that can be explained away with a letter change or medium...everything looks different. I stick with pointing out the "R" but really it's everything about it.

chaddurbin · #8 05-11-2016, 01:19 PM

fantastic jeff! just lots of stop and start with the "wife" variation. i put the CJ marquard squarely in that lot. and just because psa/jsa authenticates it doesn't mean it's real. i think you should forward this info to orlando and spence and see what they have to say.

this is what this board is about, not the other 95% useless banter.

T206Collector · #9 05-11-2016, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATP

What are your thoughts ... on the two TCMA cards I posted above, that certainly had to be signed pretty close from a time perspective. Do they look like they are in the same hand?

A couple of things -- even though my CJ Marquard looks like the more traditional sig (image attached), and 2/3 of my T206 Marquards also look more traditional -- I do think the TCMA Marquards are both signed by him (however, I do not like the sig on the T205 you posted earlier).

I believe Rube often liked to sign his last name in pieces:

M - ar- qu -ard

And I believe the tail at the end of the "d" is a routine signal.

Both TCMAs have those features, albeit the "q" in the left pic looks like it may be a standalone.

The little flair to start the "M" doesn't bother me, and seems fairly common in a lot of his signatures.

The big question to me is the capital "R". I would like to see an example of a letter written by Rube where he used the capital "R" to start a sentence and see how he wrote it. The closest I came when I looked briefly was on the "P" I showed above.

Ultimately, I would obviously trust a traditional signature more than a non-traditional signature in any context. But, I would still be a strong buyer for the non-traditional signed CJ, as I'm guessing would a significant audience!

Finally, I just want to add that I have submitted dozens of signed T206 cards to JSA and SGC over the past 10 years. There are a few Harry Coveleski signed T206s floating around, some of which were part of the Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206s in 2007 -- very good provenance. These are always rejected by the authenticators as "secretarial." So, it's not like they aren't adept at ferreting out secretarial signatures. And it's also not like they aren't aware of the huge difference in the "Rs" that we've pointed out. For some reason, they have concluded authentic. It doesn't mean they're right, or that they didn't catch it for some reason. But, I also think it would be easy to take the safe route and reject these - and yet they don't.

ATP · #10 05-11-2016, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

A couple of things -- even though my CJ Marquard looks like the more traditional sig (image attached), and 2/3 of my T206 Marquards also look more traditional -- I do think the TCMA Marquards are both signed by him (however, I do not like the sig on the T205 you posted earlier).

I believe Rube often liked to sign his last name in pieces:

M - ar- qu -ard

And I believe the tail at the end of the "d" is a routine signal.

Both TCMAs have those features, albeit the "q" in the left pic looks like it may be a standalone.

The little flair to start the "M" doesn't bother me, and seems fairly common in a lot of his signatures.

The big question to me is the capital "R". I would like to see an example of a letter written by Rube where he used the capital "R" to start a sentence and see how he wrote it. The closest I came when I looked briefly was on the "P" I showed above.

Ultimately, I would obviously trust a traditional signature more than a non-traditional signature in any context. But, I would still be a strong buyer for the non-traditional signed CJ, as I'm guessing would a significant audience!

Thanks for the detailed write up Paul. See, to me, the tail finish on the "d" in Marquard is really different and another tell between the ones I am theorizing to be ghost signed and the ones I think Marquard signed. The T205 w/o the underline finish at the end is obvious of course, but the other three, (the two t206's, Michael's CJ, and the TCMA), finish the "d" at the bottom, and then flare left. To my eyes, all of the other Marquards pretty much finish the "d" at the middle, or at the top even, then flare left. Again, to my eyes they just don't look the same at all. We may have to just agree to disagree on this topic, which is okay to me, and I can appreciate your view as you must have spent considerable time looking at this signature over the years. I posted this to get others opinions because I haven't been able to move any further with the research. I have even thought about trying to contact Marquard's relatives to see if they have any writing examples of Jeannette (Jane), as that would be very helpful.

ATP · #11 05-11-2016, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The big question to me is the capital "R". I would like to see an example of a letter written by Rube where he used the capital "R" to start a sentence and see how he wrote it. The closest I came when I looked briefly was on the "P" I showed above.

I was able to find one handwritten letter with a capital R, and will post below.

theshleps · #12 05-11-2016, 07:10 PM

I agree with Paul that Jeffs T205 looks off and not necessarily like the wife signed ones. Then again being someone who has collected autographs since the 1960's I myself have a few different ways I sign my name and I know some players who have two different ways to sign. I have for instance had David Newhan sign for me 4 cards at the same time and 2 were with a round curly D and 2 a tall sharp one. I have also spent time with players and seen their wives sign and when my son was a batboy a scrub player wanted Noah to sign his fan mail.

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