1939 Ted Williams Play Ball PSA 8 rookie Heritage auctions

[botn]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If it's the same group manipulating alot of the cards that have been run up it would be nice to know what's next.

What would be nicer is if it stopped. Price manipulation has massive repercussions to those who are not part of the group--which is 99.99999% of us. Everyone was up in arms over the isolated shill bidding at Mastro that they all claimed established new price points for those items shilled. This goes far beyond that.

[begsu1013]

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[Rookiemonster]

But who are these baseball card price manipulators? And how is anybody sure they exist?cant it just be the card market rising?

[begsu1013]

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[ksabet]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

here ya go

I don't have to look to guess that PWCC and Probstein are probably the named perpetrators.

[begsu1013]

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[ullmandds]

definitely funny business going on there.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

no. thread lists several "buyers" not consignors.

while they did have some cards listed, these guys are buying/not paying on just about every one that comes up.

some serious leg work went into it if ya take the time to read...

I read through the thread. It's pretty scary to think a couple of guys can impact the market that much in such a short period of time. If the ebay auctions are not being paid for I would hope something would be done about it. Wouldn't ebay look into a 30k unpaid auction?

[MetsBaseball1973]

To think there's some cabal out there manipulating all these key cards is really silly. Does it happen here and there, sure.

Guys want prices low when they buy, and then cry or cry foul when prices rise on things they want. Not so much when prices rise on a card they own. Pretty funny.

There is stiff competition for beautiful cards, plain and simple.

[Iron Horse]

Here's a theory,
We know for a fact that there is new money in the hobby. As stated by others some wealthy new collectors have come to cards possibly for investments or partly collecting.
This fact may have triggered those who are manipulating/shilling prices to increase their gains by these artificial prices that only so few can afford to pay.
I know of one collector who is wealthy and is paying these high end record setting prices for these key cards that you guys speak of. He seems to feel that the trend will continue and prices will rise further so it is ok to pay these record $$$ amounts and hold till prices increase further.
As they say if there is blood in the water sharks will come
Again, just a theory and i may be way off.
I know collecting for me has become more difficult as i refuse to pay these record setting prices which are now even affecting even low to mid grade level cards.
Guess just seat back and watch till the dust settles. Only question is how dusty is the situation and how long till it settles.
Enjoy collecting

[JeremyW]

I might be alone, but $30,000. for a single 1986 Fleer basketball card is not right.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

I might be alone, but $30,000. for a single 1986 Fleer basketball card is not right.

The price paid is for the flip not the card. Want proof? Crack out the card and see what it sells for. Or resubmit it 100 times and see how many times it gets a 10 again.

[botn]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

i absolutely hate agreeing w/ you, greg!

Not nearly as much as I hate knowing that.

[begsu1013]

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

did we just become best buds?

And Trump and Clinton are going to join together on a unity ticket.

[begsu1013]

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[Rookiemonster]

Thanks for the link Bob . Ok so the card shiller would have to be biding on every live auction and online auction. So if I listed a Jordan psa 10 on eBay right now the shiller bees will swarm all over it?

I was in a card shop about a year ago. And a guy walked in and asked the owner to bid on his cards for him. ( I was searching a dollar box and acted as if I was consumed by it) He said he didn't get the response he was hoping for. The owner said no problem when I get a chance. As the guy walked out he said " you know I'll look out for when you need it"

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by botn

What would be nicer is if it stopped. Price manipulation has massive repercussions to those who are not part of the group--which is 99.99999% of us. Everyone was up in arms over the isolated shill bidding at Mastro that they all claimed established new price points for those items shilled. This goes far beyond that.

I've heard the rumors but it seems difficult to prove or stop. Assuming that is what's going on is it illegal to bid your friend's card up only to have him do the same for you later? I know of there are laws against manipulation of stock prices but I don't think the SEC would have much interest in the price of Jordan RCs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I've heard the rumors but it seems difficult to prove or stop. Assuming that is what's going on is it illegal to bid your friend's card up only to have him do the same for you later? I know of there are laws against manipulation of stock prices but I don't think the SEC would have much interest in the price of Jordan RCs.

I hardly think the SEC is the only governmental body interested in fraud, if indeed that is what is happening here. There are at least two guys sitting in jail who could attest to that.

[botn]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I've heard the rumors but it seems difficult to prove or stop. Assuming that is what's going on is it illegal to bid your friend's card up only to have him do the same for you later? I know of there are laws against manipulation of stock prices but I don't think the SEC would have much interest in the price of Jordan RCs.

Yes it is illegal to bid on your friends item in exchange for his bidding on yours. Bidding for any other purpose other than attempting to win the item, is shilling. Stopping it is an entirely other thing but with ebay being the middle man on much of this stuff, I would think the FBI would get more cooperation than they did with the Mastro case.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by botn

Yes it is illegal to bid on your friends item in exchange for his bidding on yours. Bidding for any other purpose other than attempting to win the item, is shilling. Stopping it is an entirely other thing but with ebay being the middle man on much of this stuff, I would think the FBI would get more cooperation than they did with the Mastro case.

Im not familiar with the laws and am just asking. But what if they are bidding to win the cards and pay for them. If it was proven that the same guys were bidling on and paying for each other's cards a few times driving the market price up, has a crime been committed?

[botn]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Im not familiar with the laws and am just asking. But what if they are bidding to win the cards and pay for them. If it was proven that the same guys were bidling on and paying for each other's cards a few times driving the market price up, has a crime been committed?

If it were only happening a few times with a few guys then it would likely not be noticed and it would not impact the market. That does not appear to be the case from my vantage point.