Letter to george and other "haters"--ali (cont.)

jhs5120 · #1 06-06-2016, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I wonder how 1,000,000 conscientious objectors would have fared against a blitzkrieg? How about against the Russian army? Surely that would have stopped Tojo. Let's go back a little farther. Maybe the conscientious objectors could have slayed Gengis Khan.

I think if every human in world history opted to be a conscientious objector, there would have been no need for soldiers to prevent such atrocities and conflict.

packs · #2 06-06-2016, 04:19 PM

I respect everyone's right to fight or not fight, but I didn't see a lot of power behind Ali's decision. He was never in any type of danger, even if he did go fight. He was a celebrity. Do you think anyone ever took a shot at Elvis? It was more of a statement against the institutional racism of the time. That's why he used the moment to invoke how white people addressed him and how no Vietcong had ever said that to him. That's the power in the statement. Focusing on his refusal to fight I think misses the point of the moment.

Mdmtx · #3 06-06-2016, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I think if every human in world history opted to be a conscientious objector, there would have been no need for soldiers to prevent such atrocities and conflict.

I agree with that. And if nobody cheated on their taxes our rates would be lower. And if everyone paid for their medical care, those costs would be less. And if we all were nice to each other we wouldn't need alarm companies, guard dogs, electric fences, nuclear arms, policemen, armies etc...

Mankind has proven time and again that many people and groups are ONLY stopped by force.

Shangrila does not exist on earth. Unfortunate.

Mdmtx · #4 06-06-2016, 04:22 PM

I will drop from this good spirited debate now, before it becomes ugly. Interesting views.

clydepepper · #5 06-06-2016, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I will drop from this good spirited debate now, before it becomes ugly. Interesting views.

Mark- just a reminder of your previous promise.

Seems it's difficult for some of us to live up to their convictions even for the short term.

Try to imagine how difficult it was to face the consequences of your decision - not running over the Canadian border or enrolling at Oxford as actual 'draft dodgers' did.

Imagine instead standing by your decision and seeing the best years of your life being subjected to the kind of criticism that 'folks' like you continue to spew.

I will not promise to 'drop out' of this discussion as I believe in defending true Heroes.

.

Wite3 · #6 06-06-2016, 06:54 PM

Mark,
You essentially asked...what would happen if a nation of objectors stood up to a nation of war, imperialism, and violence...

The answer is you get India, the largest democratic republic in the world. Gandhi took a revolution of violence in the early part of the 20th century and turned it to a movement of civil disobedience eventually leading to the creation of India and Pakistan. Through strikes, mutinies, sit-ins, walk outs, etc. he created a movement that paralyzed the British.

Also the notion that we do not need objectors is a very limited, and frankly, a very disturbing trend.

The objector acts as a voice of opposition, a voice of conscience. People need to have that voice. It often leads to great outcomes. One of those great outcomes was the great nation you now live in and supposedly support. As someone mentioned above, you can both be an objector to war and still serve. Some of the first objectors were Quakers and Mennonites. They refused to fight in the Revolutionary War even through they were strong supporters of the Revolution itself (on grounds of taxes, freedom of thought and religion, freedom of movement, etc.). What did they do, they supplied the revolutionaries. Often with food, clothing, wagons, tools, etc. With out their help, what might have happened.

The idea of objectors is necessary and often overlooked.

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Ali on several occasions at show signings and one notable run in at a hotel here in Los Angeles. I got to sit and speak with him and his daughter and he was personable, funny, and wanted nothing more than to make others around him feel comfortable. As much as he seemed to crave fame at the height of his career, he seemed, at least to me, almost shy about it at times and people came up to us and asked for autographs and photos. I never got his autograph but was much happier to shake his hand. I was younger then and did not appreciate the man and what he came to represent as much as I do now.

I rarely wade into these frays but my hero, Jackie Robinson, respected him and was able to create a friendship with someone who held very different views. In fact, that is one of the things I have come to appreciate about Ali, his ability to engage with any culture, religion, race, etc. in a meaningful and respectful way...I wish we could all aspire and strive for that one character trait...

Joshua

tschock · #7 06-06-2016, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wite3

Mark,
You essentially asked...what would happen if a nation of objectors stood up to a nation of war, imperialism, and violence...

The answer is you get India, the largest democratic republic in the world. Gandhi took a revolution of violence in the early part of the 20th century and turned it to a movement of civil disobedience eventually leading to the creation of India and Pakistan. Through strikes, mutinies, sit-ins, walk outs, etc. he created a movement that paralyzed the British.

Also the notion that we do not need objectors is a very limited, and frankly, a very disturbing trend.

The objector acts as a voice of opposition, a voice of conscience. People need to have that voice. It often leads to great outcomes. One of those great outcomes was the great nation you now live in and supposedly support. As someone mentioned above, you can both be an objector to war and still serve. Some of the first objectors were Quakers and Mennonites. They refused to fight in the Revolutionary War even through they were strong supporters of the Revolution itself (on grounds of taxes, freedom of thought and religion, freedom of movement, etc.). What did they do, they supplied the revolutionaries. Often with food, clothing, wagons, tools, etc. With out their help, what might have happened.

The idea of objectors is necessary and often overlooked.
Joshua

Really? A somewhat flawed or idealistic analogy. Britain was not North Vietnam, North Korea, the USSR, China, Japan, Germany, etc. Do you honestly feel that a nation full of conscientious objectors would have worked well for the South Vietnamese? Maybe you should ask the Cambodians how well that worked out? Or France?

It really depends largely on who you are 'conscientiously objecting' against and what's in it for them (one way or the other).

jhs5120 · #8 06-06-2016, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I agree with that. And if nobody cheated on their taxes our rates would be lower. And if everyone paid for their medical care, those costs would be less. And if we all were nice to each other we wouldn't need alarm companies, guard dogs, electric fences, nuclear arms, policemen, armies etc...

Mankind has proven time and again that many people and groups are ONLY stopped by force.

Shangrila does not exist on earth. Unfortunate.

I can agree with all of this, but a straw man argument deserves a straw man response.

Muhammed Ali found no reason to fight for a people who had no love for him, nor did he have a reason to fight against a people who did not wrong him. He felt that the greatest injustice Americans were facing was at home and chose to stay and fight it.

Mdmtx · #9 06-06-2016, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I can agree with all of this, but a straw man argument deserves a straw man response.

Muhammed Ali found no reason to fight for a people who had no love for him, nor did he have a reason to fight against a people who did not wrong him. He felt that the greatest injustice Americans were facing was at home and chose to stay and fight it.

And that brings me back to my first post. If an army of objectors faced a fierce army that had no objections against killing, who wins the war?

jhs5120 · #10 06-06-2016, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

And that brings me back to my first post. If an army of objectors faced a fierce army that had no objections against killing, who wins the war?

Well, there would be no war if an entire side conscientiously objects.

Muhammed Ali fought a much more noble war at home than he would have fought overseas. He was already drafted into an army and fighting for the freedom of millions of Americans when Uncle Sam came knocking.

I have no love for draft dodgers, nor do I have anything but the upmost respect for service men and women, but Muhammed Ali was doing a much greater service to mankind staying home.

Mdmtx · #11 06-06-2016, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Well, there would be no war if an entire side conscientiously objects.

Muhammed Ali fought a much more noble war at home than he would have fought overseas. He was already drafted into an army and fighting for the freedom of millions of Americans when Uncle Sam came knocking.

I have no love for draft dodgers, nor do I have anything but the upmost respect for service men and women, but Muhammed Ali was doing a much greater service to mankind staying home.

I doubt his draft dodging decisions caused any disent. I'm glad you aren't against draft dodgers. But outright support one. You guys have some crazy ideas. But that's what fighting for freedom has provided, your ability to spew them.

jhs5120 · #12 06-06-2016, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I doubt his draft dodging decisions caused any disent. I'm glad you aren't against draft dodgers. But outright support one. You guys have some crazy ideas. But that's what fighting for freedom has provided, your ability to spew them.

I believe America was made a better place because Muhammed Ali chose not to go to Vietnam. If you think this is a "crazy idea" than more power to you, it's a beautiful country.

Kenny Cole · #13 06-06-2016, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I doubt his draft dodging decisions caused any disent. I'm glad you aren't against draft dodgers. But outright support one. You guys have some crazy ideas. But that's what fighting for freedom has provided, your ability to spew them.

I would suggest that sometimes it makes sense to try and figure out what you are fighting for before you engage. People understood the reasons for WWII, but even that war had conscientious objectors such as the Amish, Mennonites and at least some Quakers.

With respect to Vietnam, I'm not sure anyone ever did that, other than to make sure that we kept those darn communists, who were already here by the way and therefore subject to our laws AND our constitutional protections (despite Joe McCarthy's efforts to the contrary), out of here. That obviously worked out well.

forazzurri2axz · #14 06-06-2016, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I think if every human in world history opted to be a conscientious objector, there would have been no need for soldiers to prevent such atrocities and conflict.

phenomenally spoken, thank you!!!

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