Your top 3 non HOFers

[aconte]

Dale Murphy, Larry Bowa, Steve Garvey

[midmo]

Gil Hodges, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy

[bobsbbcards]

Jim McCormick, Bill Dahlen, and Lou Whitaker

[rats60]

Bagwell
Raines
Trammell

[nat]

Reasons are more interesting than just names. Let's hear the arguments for these guys.

I'm going to exclude Bagwell and Raines, because I think it's very very likely that they get in in the next year (Raines) or two (Bagwell). Schilling and a couple other guys currently on the ballot get omitted for similar reasons.

Don't hold me to these picks as the very best, but here are a few:

Lou Whittaker. Lou's trouble is that he did everything well and nothing outstanding. He had good power (20 HR range in the 1980s), was a good fielder (+15 dWAR, although some of that he gets just for playing second base, but he also won a few gold gloves), he walked more than he struck out. He was an above-average batter all but one year of his career, even playing a defense-first position. 75 wins above replacement (basically, if you replaced him with a AAA guy you'd expect to win 75 fewer games over the course of his career) and 42 wins above average, both well above what it usually takes to get into the hall of fame.

Kevin Brown. I know that this one will be unpopular, but Brown really was a great player, it's just that no one was paying attention. From 1992 to 2001 (the heart of his career) he had a 3.00 ERA over 2166 innings. From 1996 to 1998, his best seasons, he had a 2.33 ERA over 717 innings. Good for a 172 ERA+ (Basically just ERA once you control for the parks where he played, and compared to average; higher is better.) By comparison from 1964 to 1966 Koufax had a 176 ERA+ in 881 innings. So his peak was not quite as good as Koufax's, that's nothing to be ashamed of. 68 WAR/ 40 WAA for him.

Got to run, I'll come up with a third later.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I assume steroid suspicion has kept Bagwell out, no? Otherwise he seems pretty obvious.

My reasoning on Hodges Oliva and Garvey is that they were each pretty dominant players for a decade or close to it, although they didn't quite put together the big career numbers. I guess Mattingly fits that bill too.

[Bill77]

If I had to name just 3 players I would go with:

Al Oliver .303 BA, 2743 Hits in 18 seasons
Buddy Bell .279 BA, 2514 Hits in 18 seasons
Del Ennis .284 BA, 2063 Hits in 14 seasons

Others would include:
Lou Whitaker
Mark Grace
Rusty Staub


I just think it's amazing how many players have good/great stats that seem to be overlooked just because they don't play on great teams or are overshadowed by bigger stars of the era.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Bill77

If I had to name just 3 players I would go with:

Al Oliver .303 BA, 2743 Hits in 18 seasons
Buddy Bell .279 BA, 2514 Hits in 18 seasons
Del Ennis .284 BA, 2063 Hits in 14 seasons

Others would include:
Lou Whitaker
Mark Grace
Rusty Staub


I just think it's amazing how many players have good/great stats that seem to be overlooked just because they don't play on great teams or are overshadowed by bigger stars of the era.

There are a lot of reason why, and a lot of reasons that don't make any sense and just make one shake their head in disbelieve!
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/...again-20141208

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article...-a-lot-of-work

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/ml...thomas-raines/

[71buc]

I agree with Raines and have always possessed a bias for Scoop. Is there anyone who owns 4 batting titles other than Madlock not in the hall?

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by nat

Reasons are more interesting than just names. Let's hear the arguments for these guys.

I'm going to exclude Bagwell and Raines, because I think it's very very likely that they get in in the next year (Raines) or two (Bagwell). Schilling and a couple other guys currently on the ballot get omitted for similar reasons.

Don't hold me to these picks as the very best, but here are a few:

Lou Whittaker. Lou's trouble is that he did everything well and nothing outstanding. He had good power (20 HR range in the 1980s), was a good fielder (+15 dWAR, although some of that he gets just for playing second base, but he also won a few gold gloves), he walked more than he struck out. He was an above-average batter all but one year of his career, even playing a defense-first position. 75 wins above replacement (basically, if you replaced him with a AAA guy you'd expect to win 75 fewer games over the course of his career) and 42 wins above average, both well above what it usually takes to get into the hall of fame.

Kevin Brown. I know that this one will be unpopular, but Brown really was a great player, it's just that no one was paying attention. From 1992 to 2001 (the heart of his career) he had a 3.00 ERA over 2166 innings. From 1996 to 1998, his best seasons, he had a 2.33 ERA over 717 innings. Good for a 172 ERA+ (Basically just ERA once you control for the parks where he played, and compared to average; higher is better.) By comparison from 1964 to 1966 Koufax had a 176 ERA+ in 881 innings. So his peak was not quite as good as Koufax's, that's nothing to be ashamed of. 68 WAR/ 40 WAA for him.

Got to run, I'll come up with a third later.

Kevin Brown was listed in the Mitchel Report.

[bn2cardz]

Since this isn't about the best stats not in the HOF here are players that stand out in my memory and make me pause when I run across their cards:

David Eckstein - The only jersey in our house with a name on it. It was my wife's jersey, he was the MVP in 2006 WS. The 2006 Playoffs and WS was the start of our relationship. I had extra tickets to a playoff game and put out the offer to my Bible Study group and she was willing to go. Then she was willing to pay her half to go to the World Series with me. We just hung out as friends at that time, but then never stopped hanging out.


JD Drew - My older sister loved looking for his cards, and I would seek out what I could to help her out. This 'crush' helped my sister and I bond over baseball cards.


Mark Grace - Very much a different person than the other two listed. A Cub and had many vices. I always thought he was a great player as a child so when the Cubs came to St. Louis I went to the visiting side during batting practice and asked for his auto. He obliged and was very polite even though I was wearing Cardinals clothes. When I turned to leave (because I got the player I wanted) some Cubs fans stopped me and told me they couldn't believe Grace had done that because they follow the team around and can never get him to sign and have never seen him sign during batting practice. That stood out to me and made me a real fan of his even if he played on the Cubs and I was in St. Louis.

[gnpaden]

Fred McGriff, Kenny Lofton and Tony Oliva.

[stlcardsfan]

Here are three guys that played for the Cardinals for quite a bit of their career. I am sure almost every team could come up with three players that they think should be in.

Jim Edmonds - nearly identical career batting numbers to Duke Snider, and a great fielder.

Ted Simmons - would be in if a guy named Johnny Bench wasn't playing at the same time.

Lee Smith - dominant closer of his time with a ton of saves. I know closers don't get much love in HOF though.

[bravos4evr]

However, I still feel like a pitcher who went 22-10 had a better year than a guy who went 9-13, regardless of advanced metrics. I suspect the two pitchers in question would agree. I'm not saying the former is the better pitcher in vacuo...just that he had a better year.

hmm, in 2010 Felix Hernandez had an ERA of 2.27 over 249 innings and yet only had a record of 13-12 (yet he won the Cy Young that year)

The league leaders in wins were CC Sabathia 21-7 with a 3.18 ERA , Lester at 19-9 with a 3.25 ERA and David Price with a 19-6 record and 2.72 ERA.

Felix had an ERA nearly half a pt better than the nearest win leader yet he had a mediocre record. why? he played for a bad team.

pitcher wins really have very little merit anymore. a guy can throw 8 scoreless , have a 4-0 lead, and the pen can come in and blow it, then the team walk off in the btm of the inning and the guy who blew it gets the win!

[bravos4evr]

anyway back to the task at hand!

3 more guys

1- Bobby Grich

2-Lou Whittaker

3-Alan Trammel

[steve B]

lots of excellent choices. Hard to pick a top 3. I'll go with 3 I really liked, two already mentioned one not.

1)Munson
2)Parker
3) Dwight Evans. (Like the other 3 really should be in, but fell just short of what used to be sure thing stats, and got knocked off the ballot by one super strong group in I think his 4th year. )

Plus one not yet eligible who I think should be in, but won't be.
Jason Varitek.

More no-hitters as a catcher than anyone, and a load of the intangibles that everyone ignores. Not a great hitter, but not horrible. Fielding etc was hurt by catching Wakefield so often.
No, he won't get in.


Steve B

[nat]

Hodges was good defensively. The first stat line I posted was Carlos Delgado, the third was Hodges. Delgado was the better hitter (138 to 120 OPS+), but they have virtually identical WAR totals. The difference is defense (plus maybe some base running). So we can and do take his defense into account.

As noted above, RBIs are extremely team dependent. They're not a good way to evaluate a player. Take June 12, 1949 for example. Hodges had 8 RBIs. Pretty nice. But it doesn't hurt that he's got Pee Wee Reese (.411 on base percentage), Gene Hermanski (.452 at the time), Duke Snider (a relative slacker at .348), and Jackie Robinson (.411) batting in front of him. He's going to have a TON of opportunities to drive in runs, because those guys are going to be on base all the time.

The all star appearances show that he was thought of as a star at the time, but are only a very weak indication that he was actually a good player. See, for example, George Kell and his 10 all star appearances. Dave Concepcion made 9. Frank McCormick made 9. It happens.

The "advanced" stats are just records of what happened, just like wins and RBIs are. The difference with a lot of them, though, is that they try to isolate the player's contribution from the effects of the parks that he played in (this is what the various + stats do), or they try to strip out the effects of events that aren't under the player's control (that the guys batting in front of Hodges reached base frequently, is one example).