Maris- why is he under appreciated

[Peter_Spaeth]

Baseball is first and foremost a game measured by numbers. By any set of numbers, Maris is nowhere close to HOF stature, in my book. This is not to denigrate him in any way or to say he should not be admired for breaking the record and for his other talents and accomplishments.

PS the cut his life by 25 years thing seems a bit melodramatic and a media creation to me. Millions of ordinary people were and are under infinitely more pressure on a daily basis than a guy playing baseball chasing a record. Sure he put pressure on himself for a couple of months but to say it dramatically shortened his life, I am skeptical.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Baseball is first and foremost a game measured by numbers. By any set of numbers, Maris is nowhere close to HOF stature, in my book. This is not to denigrate him in any way or to say he should not be admired for breaking the record and for his other talents and accomplishments.

Deep down, Pete, I know you are right. I guess the magnitude of his one magnificent season, in my heart and mind, carries enough weight to put Roger in Cooperstown. That probably won't happen, which is why I wrote, as I did in my book, that at least Roger is in my own hall of fame. Regardless of whether he is enshrined, I will at least look upon him as a great player and family man. Amazing at it may seem, what soured Roger on playing baseball was not 1961; rather, it was 1962---with all the unreasonable expectations and miserable shellackings Roger got from the New York press. Many fans who carried the torch for the Babe, or Mickey, took great delight in booing and bashing Roger.

A couple other players had one outstanding season, to the extent that arguments could be made in their behalf.... I guess it boils down that it's just too bad that there isn't something to recognize a guy for one glorious season. The two I was thinking of were Colby Jack Coombs of Connie Mack's 1910 A's, and Smoky Joe Wood with the 1912 Red Sox. The chapter in THE GLORY OF THEIR TIMES got me started on Mr. Wood, while the SABR entry on Mr. Coombs left me stunned. Talk about numbers and sheer superiority with these hurlers in their respective seasons. Right there with Big Ed Walsh's 1908 campaign, though Edward had sufficient numbers from other years to elect him back in 1946. Ty Cobb spoke glowingly of Big Ed, just as Walter Johnson claimed nobody was faster than Smoky Joe Wood.

Of course, few players were more modest than ol' Barney The Big Train!

Pete, thank you for dealing with me with dignity and respect. It was probably more than I deserved. Given the fact I've been a strong Roger Maris fan since 1961, a rooter for the underdog just like my dear mother was; well, I suppose I don't want to drop the torch for Roger.

Best regards, bro. ---Brian Powell

[Neal]

Maris is all over Cooperstown .... just not as a plaque on the wall.

Koufax became great because of the move to the Coliseum and Dodger Stadium, not steroids .....

[packs]

If you look at cards of Maris before and after the record you can clearly see the toll it took on him. He was under constant death threats. That is not a media creation.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Neal

Maris is all over Cooperstown .... just not as a plaque on the wall.

Koufax became great because of the move to the Coliseum and Dodger Stadium, not steroids .....

Koufax had to develop in the majors since he never was in the minors. He was also used very sporadically the first 4 or 5 years in his career. That changed in 1961 when he received regular turns on the mound.

He had great stuff in college at Cincinnati, but was wild. The arm was always there, it wasn't the stadium that made Koufax great.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Koufax had to develop in the majors since he never was in the minors. He was also used very sporadically the first 4 or 5 years in his career. That changed in 1961 when he received regular turns on the mound.

He had great stuff in college at Cincinnati, but was wild. The arm was always there, it wasn't the stadium that made Koufax great.

Supposedly Koufax made a quantum leap when Larry Sherry urged him to slow down his delivery after a particularly bad streak of wildness.

[KCRfan1]

+1

Walter Alston really yanked Koufax around. He was a manager who played veterans and didn't care for a bonus baby in Koufax.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Deep down, Pete, I know you are right. I guess the magnitude of his one magnificent season, in my heart and mind, carries enough weight to put Roger in Cooperstown. That probably won't happen, which is why I wrote, as I did in my book, that at least Roger is in my own hall of fame. Regardless of whether he is enshrined, I will at least look upon him as a great player and family man. Amazing at it may seem, what soured Roger on playing baseball was not 1961; rather, it was 1962---with all the unreasonable expectations and miserable shellackings Roger got from the New York press. Many fans who carried the torch for the Babe, or Mickey, took great delight in booing and bashing Roger.

A couple other players had one outstanding season, to the extent that arguments could be made in their behalf.... I guess it boils down that it's just too bad that there isn't something to recognize a guy for one glorious season. The two I was thinking of were Colby Jack Coombs of Connie Mack's 1910 A's, and Smoky Joe Wood with the 1912 Red Sox. The chapter in THE GLORY OF THEIR TIMES got me started on Mr. Wood, while the SABR entry on Mr. Coombs left me stunned. Talk about numbers and sheer superiority with these hurlers in their respective seasons. Right there with Big Ed Walsh's 1908 campaign, though Edward had sufficient numbers from other years to elect him back in 1946. Ty Cobb spoke glowingly of Big Ed, just as Walter Johnson claimed nobody was faster than Smoky Joe Wood.

Of course, few players were more modest than ol' Barney The Big Train!

Pete, thank you for dealing with me with dignity and respect. It was probably more than I deserved. Given the fact I've been a strong Roger Maris fan since 1961, a rooter for the underdog just like my dear mother was; well, I suppose I don't want to drop the torch for Roger.

Best regards, bro. ---Brian Powell

No right or wrong here, just opinion, and it certainly makes for good discussion. It's always interesting to think about guys who had these one or two phenomenal seasons relative to the rest of their careers -- Cash, Ron Bryant, Steve Stone come immediately to mind but I am sure there are many others.

[chaddurbin]

maris' appreciation is just fine looking at the prices of his cards. talk to jackie robinson about pressure. and being under-appreciated how about barry bonds (#1 barry bonds champion, that's me!).

the HOF does recognize great individual achievements, we don't need to induct the player in for one great season/feat. i'm sure a bat or jersey from his 61 hr year is in there, and vander meer back to back no hitters, harvey haddix 10in perfect game etc.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

maris' appreciation is just fine looking at the prices of his cards. talk to jackie robinson about pressure. and being under-appreciated how about barry bonds (#1 barry bonds champion, that's me!).

the HOF does recognize great individual achievements, we don't need to induct the player in for one great season/feat. i'm sure a bat or jersey from his 61 hr year is in there, and vander meer back to back no hitters, harvey haddix 10in perfect game etc.

Barry has only himself to blame. Unless you think he was juicing all along, and I don't, he was already a lock first ballot HOFer when his ego got the better of him after Sosa and McGwire.

[chaddurbin]

barry was a product of his time. i don't blame him for juicing when a majority of the players were and seeing lesser talents get more recognition.

what did him in was when you added PED on top of his enormous talent he made a mockery of all the numbers put up by historical immortals like ruth williams gehrig etc. but if scrubs like brady anderson and luis gonzalez can hit 50hrs with ped, what did you think bonds was going to do? his surliness with the media also got him no point there. there are already suspected juicers in the hall and looks like david ortiz is trending that way too, would be a real crime if bonds is shut out. bonds is penalized because he was TOO great with ped.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

barry was a product of his time. i don't blame him for juicing when a majority of the players were and seeing lesser talents get more recognition.

what did him in was when you added PED on top of his enormous talent he made a mockery of all the numbers put up by historical immortals like ruth williams gehrig etc. but if scrubs like brady anderson and luis gonzalez can hit 50hrs with ped, what did you think bonds was going to do? his surliness with the media also got him no point there. there are already suspected juicers in the hall and looks like david ortiz is trending that way too, would be a real crime if bonds is shut out. bonds is penalized because he was TOO great with ped.

That was his justification I believe, and according to his GF -- it pissed him off to see McGwire and Sosa, who couldn't hold a candle to him talent-wise, get all that recognition.