1954 Topps Aaron RC versus 1955 Topps Clemente RC

[ullmandds]

You know what I think?

I think whomever is driving up prices has chosen a "figurehead" of ethnicity...Koufax, Clemente, and Robinson gets the nod for the blacks at this time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Clemente has always been worth more in same grade. I am surprised pops are similar actually I thought Clemente was harder to find being a high number.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Clemente has always been justly popular in the hobby, from some combination of his flair and charisma, untimely death, humanitarian efforts, and status as the first Latin (is that politically correct these days?) superstar.

[Rookiemonster]

I always chalked it up to it being a high number(the Clemente ). It seems to always be off center. So I'm sure center Clementes sell for a higher premium.


I also notice that the 1954 topps rookie are everywhere. I can't check my followed searchs with one of them being listed .

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemente has always been justly popular in the hobby, from some combination of his flair and charisma, untimely death, humanitarian efforts, and status as the first Latin (is that politically correct these days?) superstar.

All of that, plus being a high number.

Plus, and it'll probably annoy fans of the 54s. I think it's just a much nicer looking card. If they were both commons and set out for free with the only catch being that you could only take one, which would it be?

Steve B

[glynparson]

Is simply more popular and has been since I started collecting in the late 70's early 80's. Aaron used to be a tough card to sell despite his tremendous resume. This is no longer the case of course but Clemente is still more popular.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemente has always been justly popular in the hobby, from some combination of his flair and charisma, untimely death, humanitarian efforts, and status as the first Latin (is that politically correct these days?) superstar.

All quite true, although Aaron was objectively and demonstrably the better player--just check JAWs and runs created per 27 outs to league average. Clemente was a better fielder, but not nearly enough better to close the considerable offensive performance gap, and Aaron was a very good right fielder. In JAWs (career wins above replacement plus 7-year peak wins above replacement divided by two, Aaron is the second best right fielder of all time, with 142.6 career WAR and 60.1 7-year peak WAR.. Clemente is the 6th best, with 94.5 and 54.3 respectively. In runs created per 27 outs taken against the league average, Aaron is over 180%, while Roberto is in the 140%-range. For the reasons Pete has stated, Clemente has the "mystique," which Aaron lacks, hence, with a similar supply, more demand, and more value (VALUE IS ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS in proportion to the demand for an item in relation to the available supply in a free market).

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

As someone once said, you had a better chance of sneaking a sunrise past a rooster than sneaking a fastball by Hank Aaron.

[RobertC]

"As far as I'm concerned, (Hank) Aaron is the best ball player of my era. He is to baseball of the last fifteen years what Joe DiMaggio was before him. He's never received the credit he's due." - Mickey Mantle

[esehombre]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As someone once said, you had a better chance of sneaking a sunrise past a rooster than sneaking a fastball by Hank Aaron.

I think that was a quote from Bob Feller in reference to Ted Williams (who would certainly know). Of course it fits Aaron just fine as well!

[Neal]

Originally Posted by esehombre

I think that was a quote from Bob Feller in reference to Ted Williams (who would certainly know). Of course it fits Aaron just fine as well!

I think it was Curt Simmons regarding Aaron ....

[Gr8Beldini]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

All quite true, although Aaron was objectively and demonstrably the better player--just check JAWs and runs created per 27 outs to league average. Clemente was a better fielder, but not nearly enough better to close the considerable offensive performance gap, and Aaron was a very good right fielder. In JAWs (career wins above replacement plus 7-year peak wins above replacement divided by two, Aaron is the second best right fielder of all time, with 142.6 career WAR and 60.1 7-year peak WAR.. Clemente is the 6th best, with 94.5 and 54.3 respectively. In runs created per 27 outs taken against the league average, Aaron is over 180%, while Roberto is in the 140%-range. For the reasons Pete has stated, Clemente has the "mystique," which Aaron lacks, hence, with a similar supply, more demand, and more value (VALUE IS ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS in proportion to the demand for an item in relation to the available supply in a free market).

Larry

Aaron was a better player than Clemente; a better player than all but a fist full of players in MLB history. But nobody is debating "better player." Clemente is a God in the Hispanic community. Aaron doesn't have anywhere near that kind of following in any community. Clemente is revered in Pittsburgh... not-so-much Aaron in Milwaukee/Atlanta. Plus Clemente won 2 championships (owning 1971); died a heroic death; his rookie card is scarcer than Hank's... Hank was a great great player; Roberto was an iconic player that was great. There is more demand for "iconic" than for "great."

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Clemente was a better fielder, but not nearly enough better to close the considerable offensive performance gap, and Aaron was a very good right fielder.

Aaron has a negative 4.8 defensive WAR. Aaron and Mays are not very pleasant people. I think that really hurts the value of their cards.

[CW]

Originally Posted by rats60

Aaron and Mays are not very pleasant people.

I know I've read more than one instance where Mays was a prick, but I hadn't really heard any bad stories about Aaron. He was pretty sour when Bonds was surpassing his HR record, understandably so, but that's all the negative press I've heard on Hank.

Did I miss some instances of Aaron being unpleasant to fans or the press?

[glynparson]

Clemente may not have listed for more but he was far easier to sell and high end cards commanded a far larger premium than Aaron cards did. From my experiences of doing countless major shows pre grading Clemente was in fact in far greater demand despite what was quoted in a magazine. In the early 90's Aaron, though not as surly as Mays, was considered by many who got his auto to be rude. from the responses i heard at shows.

[stargell1]

Originally Posted by CW

Did I miss some instances of Aaron being unpleasant to fans or the press?

Yes. Aaron is a well known racist.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/hank-...obama-critics/

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by rats60

Aaron has a negative 4.8 defensive WAR. Aaron and Mays are not very pleasant people. I think that really hurts the value of their cards.

That's an interesting take.

[toppcat]

I agree that a player being a dick can hurt card values.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemente has always been worth more in same grade.

Starting when? Look back through some old copies of Beckett. Aaron RC was 1.5X Clemente RC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Starting when? Look back through some old copies of Beckett. Aaron RC was 1.5X Clemente RC.

Maybe not in Beckett but graded 7s and 8s for sure as long as I remember.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

...Koufax, Clemente, and Robinson gets the nod for the blacks at this time.

hmm.

[midwaylandscaping]

Aaron's underrated relative to his career accomplishments and standing as an all time great and his RC is undervalued. Always has been.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by midwaylandscaping

Aaron's underrated relative to his career accomplishments and standing as an all time great and his RC is undervalued. Always has been.

Yeah just look at Aaron's card values relative to Mantle for any given year starting in 56. Then look at their relative accomplishments.

[toppcat]

Clemente is more popular than Aaron, it's not even really close from what I've seen over about 30 years or so.

[begsu1013]

for now, unfortunately.

[Neal]

As stated already in this thread ....

1) Aaron cards do not get a lot of respect. No idea why.
2) Aaron's resume is underrated. Highly, at times. No idea why.
3) Clemente had a great career that had an unfortunate, memorable ending.
5) The 55 Topps issue is awesome

I think the 54 Aaron has some more room to grow, however.