PWCC Auction Yet Again

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Isn't a "$1000 card" that sells for $800 in a well publicized auction, in fact, an $800 card?

I have never understood why people today feel only an auction can determine what the true value of a card or commodity is.

The short answer is NO, at auction there needs to be TWO people that feel the card is worth a certain amount for the item to get to that level. If only one person bids to the current level and there is not a second party involved they may in fact be getting a major deal on the card considering that same person may have been willing to spend a significant amount more to aquire the same item in a retail or direct sale setting.

Retail sales haven't suddenly become meaningless. In reality all it takes is ONE PERSON to determine a market value as long as money is exchanging hands. Sellers have sold countless things over the years for a fair amount over "auction value" to someone that really wants an item that is unavailable elsewhere, especially in a thinly traded set. These sales are every bit as legitimate as any auction price.

ON a different topic: I always find it funny when people who are almost exclusively buyers just don't understand why sellers don't just start things low and let it fly, as if the seller must have gotten the item for free and there is no risk involved. It sure is easy to risk or spend other peoples money, isn't it!

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I have never understood why people today feel only an auction can determine what the true value of a card or commodity is.

The short answer is NO, at auction there needs to be TWO people that feel the card is worth a certain amount for the item to get to that level. If only one person bids to the current level and there is not a second party involved they may in fact be getting a major deal on the card considering that same person may have been willing to spend a significant amount more to aquire the same item in a retail or direct sale setting.

Retail sales haven't suddenly become meaningless. In reality all it takes is ONE PERSON to determine a market value as long as money is exchanging hands. Sellers have sold countless things over the years for a fair amount over "auction value" to someone that really wants an item that is unavailable elsewhere, especially in a thinly traded set. These sales are every bit as legitimate as any auction price.

ON a different topic: I always find it funny when people who are almost exclusively buyers just don't understand why sellers don't just start things low and let it fly, as if the seller must have gotten the item for free and there is no risk involved. It sure is easy to risk or spend other peoples money, isn't it!

+1. Beautifully stated. If multiple people think it's worth something, then that gets you your true value. If the runner up thinks it's worth squat, is it REALLY worth squat? I have had people try to get my items via Ebay's messaging system (when I have multiples of the same item, for example, unopened wax packs) for the "peanuts" price, after the auction has ended. I explain to them my disappointment with the low price, and then proceed to sell the item for "real" value, in the case 3-4 times the value of the peanuts price. Might take longer than a 7 day auction, but doesn't take years! Obviously that is on items with a small market window. That won't work on a 1965 Joe Namath rookie card! Obviously a .99 cent auction will yield the best results, no matter WHO is selling that card! LOL! Then again, PWCC might get more than me....who knows!

[glynparson]

+1

[nat]

A general point, not specific to eBay sales:

The price that you paid for something shouldn't have anything to do with what you're willing to sell it for. The money that you paid is gone, it's a sunk cost. The question is really: will you be able to sell this for more money in the future?* And if the answer is "no", it makes sense to sell it now. Sometimes selling for a loss is a good idea.


*Actually, you should also take into account the cost of maintaining an inventory, the time-value of money (if you sell it now you can put the money you get into the market, or buy t-bills, or whatever), and, of course, how much you need the money now.

[mark evans]

I'll confess to being a buyer/collector who may find it difficult to put myself in a seller's shoes. My complaint is not with BINs per se, but with the fact that they are almost invariably set significantly above VCP values.

Let me offer a suggestion: how about auctions with low starting bids and reserves set in the general vicinity (+5%?) of VCP values? This should increase the likelihood of sales while at the same time allowing sellers to take advantage of bidding wars in appropriate cases.

[Snapolit1]

Maybe an economist would disagree, but I think you need to look at more than one motivated buyer to determine the true value of something. If my house is worth $500,000, but some guy comes and offers me $1,000,000 for the house, maybe because his father grew up in the house and it's his life long dream to own it again, that doesn't make the market value $1,000,000, its a half million dollar house that some guy overpaid for.

[edhans]

Another emphatic plus one to Rhett's comments. I've been trying to make this point to customers and auction houses for years. The market is created by arms length transactions between ONE buyer and ONE seller. This is especially true for rare, but thinly traded issues.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mark evans

I'll confess to being a buyer/collector who may find it difficult to put myself in a seller's shoes. My complaint is not with BINs per se, but with the fact that they are almost invariably set significantly above VCP values.

Let me offer a suggestion: how about auctions with low starting bids and reserves set in the general vicinity (+5%?) of VCP values? This should increase the likelihood of sales while at the same time allowing sellers to take advantage of bidding wars in appropriate cases.

Ebay charges an exorbitant amount to set a reserve price.
If you set reserves on multiple items you would wind up losing money.

[mark evans]

Thanks, Richard. I was unaware of that fact which obviously complicates my suggestion.

Mark

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I have never understood why people today feel only an auction can determine what the true value of a card or commodity is.

The short answer is NO, at auction there needs to be TWO people that feel the card is worth a certain amount for the item to get to that level. If only one person bids to the current level and there is not a second party involved they may in fact be getting a major deal on the card considering that same person may have been willing to spend a significant amount more to aquire the same item in a retail or direct sale setting.

Retail sales haven't suddenly become meaningless. In reality all it takes is ONE PERSON to determine a market value as long as money is exchanging hands. Sellers have sold countless things over the years for a fair amount over "auction value" to someone that really wants an item that is unavailable elsewhere, especially in a thinly traded set. These sales are every bit as legitimate as any auction price.

ON a different topic: I always find it funny when people who are almost exclusively buyers just don't understand why sellers don't just start things low and let it fly, as if the seller must have gotten the item for free and there is no risk involved. It sure is easy to risk or spend other peoples money, isn't it!

Rhett:
With all due respect, I actually agree with your well-articulated point, but I believe you've actually supported my argument, not refuted it. My general point is that an auction (that is well publicized and therefore attracts rational prospective buyers) is A good barometer of market value but certainly not THE only way to determine value. To use my quote as a springboard to your point represents a bit of non-sequitur.

Again, I agree with you that a market price can be determined by two parties alone, a rational seller and a rational buyer (i.e. someone not selling or buying under duress or with emotion as in Steve's example.) It happens in real estate all the time. If one buyer buys my house (with no other bids) for $500K, then that is the market value of that house in the immediate term (obviously economic conditions can change that over time.) And so, if we both agree that at least one buyer and one seller are necessary and sufficient to agree to a price which becomes market value, then the presence of additional buyers (i.e. in an auction) would naturally be included in that premise.

Certainly not trying to create a debate on a beautiful day; just seeking to clarify my point as I don't think we disagree on much here. Full disclosure: I am largely a collector, but I consigned some cards to PWCC a while back and got CRUSHED. My only conclusion, however, was that the market price for my cards was lower than when I bought them. Just bad timing on my part.

[glynparson]

Includes what seller will sell item for not just what buyers will pay.
http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...ket-value.html

[clydepepper]

PWCC has always been good to me (-Pepe Escquala quote?)

Probstein and Ebay are both on my SH?T list.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Always a ton of these every auction including this one.

[Scocs]

To speak to Rhett's point: the problem is that eBay and auction houses are, by nature, very public spectacles. How do you create and maintain market value when private sales are, by their very nature, private? Especially on ultra rare cards?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Scocs

To speak to Rhett's point: the problem is that eBay and auction houses are, by nature, very public spectacles. How do you create and maintain market value when private sales are, by their very nature, private? Especially on ultra rare cards?

Im sure this happens in the Art and Coin world as well...

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

PWCC has always been good to me (-Pepe Escquala quote?)

Probstein and Ebay are both on my SH?T list.

LOL...which is ironic because PWCC sells on Ebay! So is Ebay REALLY on your sh*t list??

[VintageJay]

Any final price guesses on the Pete Rose PSA 9 rookie? Insane!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

LOL...which is ironic because PWCC sells on Ebay! So is Ebay REALLY on your sh*t list??

Burn

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Burn

Not at all burned...even if that was his intent.

My sh*t list is very compartmentalized.

PWCC filters good quality product and service on a platform that has done me wrong. I cannot blame PWCC for the inequities of EBAY.

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

PWCC has always been good to me (-Pepe Escquala quote?)

CHICO Escuela. "...baseball has been berry, berry good to me..."

NOT being a d!ck - posted only for accuracy (BTW, it's a great quote!)

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by FourStrikes

CHICO Escuela. "...baseball has been berry, berry good to me..."

NOT being a d!ck - posted only for accuracy (BTW, it's a great quote!)

Sorry 'bout that...broken English is only my second language.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

ON a different topic: I always find it funny when people who are almost exclusively buyers just don't understand why sellers don't just start things low and let it fly, as if the seller must have gotten the item for free and there is no risk involved. It sure is easy to risk or spend other peoples money, isn't it!

I would say those sellers you refer to aren't very good at their job. There is this thing called math that I use to calculate what price I can buy a card at and then sell it for a profit.

I completely ignore past sales of BIN and focus on auction prices. This way when I buy cards I only buy at prices that I can "let it fly" and feel comfortable.

I will never be confused for Dean's Cards. I Buy low...flip fast...repeat.

Worked for me so far.

[I am not a full time dealer and don't earn a living doing this}

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by ksabet

I would say those sellers you refer to aren't very good at their job. There is this thing called math that I use to calculate what price I can buy a card at and then sell it for a profit.

I completely ignore past sales of BIN and focus on auction prices. This way when I buy cards I only buy at prices that I can "let it fly" and feel comfortable.

I will never be confused for Dean's Cards. I Buy low...flip fast...repeat.

Worked for me so far.

[I am not a full time dealer and don't earn a living doing this}

You admit you aren't a dealer and don't make a living selling cards but call people that don't want to lose money on an investment they have made "bad at their job"? You are right we need more dealers in this hobby that offer people pennies on the dollar for their quality items because that makes them "good at their job", because hey, they never lose money right!?!

Honestly, it isn't that hard to wait for a screaming deal that may show up from time to time and then sell for a pretty good profit. We have all done this. Making these types of deals in bulk and consistently turning a profit is very difficult and I know I don't envy people that try to make a living doing so.

[T205 GB]

I have to say I consigned a few cards. Figured with the strong prices they bring it was a wise choice. Needless to say I lost my ass. Kinda f'ed up if you ask me. Well at least I have a clear conscience

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

I have to say I consigned a few cards. Figured with the strong prices they bring it was a wise choice. Needless to say I lost my ass. Kinda f'ed up if you ask me. Well at least I have a clear conscience

sorry to hear this...buy obviously you're not in the "in" crowd!!!!!

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

sorry to hear this...buy obviously you're not in the "in" crowd!!!!!

I would rather have a clear conscious and integrity than be in the "in" crowd if thats what you are saying

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

You admit you aren't a dealer and don't make a living selling cards but call people that don't want to lose money on an investment they have made "bad at their job"? You are right we need more dealers in this hobby that offer people pennies on the dollar for their quality items because that makes them "good at their job", because hey, they never lose money right!?!

Honestly, it isn't that hard to wait for a screaming deal that may show up from time to time and then sell for a pretty good profit. We have all done this. Making these types of deals in bulk and consistently turning a profit is very difficult and I know I don't envy people that try to make a living doing so.

I never said pennies on the dollar...just fair market price. And wait are they investing or buying for resale? Investing is totally different.

Recently I messaged with a gentleman selling a Mean Joe Greene PSA 8.5 RC card currently for $25k despite the fact that it is about a 2-3k card. He wrote me a dissertation about why that price is accurate yet he won't purchase the other PSA 8.5 sitting there for (also overly inflated price) $11k. I just said "thank you".

If the public actually educated themselves, shops like Dean's Cards would be out of business. But gotta give him credit because they "are one of the only trusted sports card stores on eBay" and they have their own grading system and neat little stickers (gasp)...and probably a truck full of money out back so who am I to judge.

And yes I do believe dealers who invest in items they can't afford and then hold them for years at ridiculously inflated prices are dumb.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ksabet

I never said pennies on the dollar...just fair market price. And wait are they investing or buying for resale? Investing is totally different.

Recently I messaged with a gentleman selling a Mean Joe Greene PSA 8.5 RC card currently for $25k despite the fact that it is about a 2-3k card. He wrote me a dissertation about why that price is accurate yet he won't purchase the other PSA 8.5 sitting there for (also overly inflated price) $11k. I just said "thank you".

If the public actually educated themselves, shops like Dean's Cards would be out of business. But gotta give him credit because they "are one of the only trusted sports card stores on eBay" and they have their own grading system and neat little stickers (gasp)...and probably a truck full of money out back so who am I to judge.

And yes I do believe dealers who invest in items they can't afford and then hold them for years at ridiculously inflated prices are dumb.

An educated consumer is the best consumer. A few months ago I bought a card from Deans for $2480 and sold it a month later for a $1200 profit. Otherwise, on my other deals with them I will probably lose about $200. All in all not that bad. I just need to work on the $200 mistake(s). I like Dean's Cards, personally.

AND to get back on track, there are reasons PWCC is kicking butt. For one, they advertise a ton. For two, they seem to be bringing stellar cards to market with their business model. And for three, Brent isn't afraid of transparency which goes a long ways in building trust (see his offerings). IS there still work to do on the auction bidding anomalies, of course. But PWCC is doing a fine job at the moment and their sales are proving it out.

.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Leon

An educated consumer is the best consumer. A few months ago I bought a card from Deans for $2480 and sold it a month later for a $1200 profit. Otherwise, on my other deals with them I will probably lose about $200. All in all not that bad. I just need to work on the $200 mistake(s). I like Dean's Cards, personally.

AND to get back on track, there are reasons PWCC is kicking butt. For one, they advertise a ton. For two, they seem to be bringing stellar cards to market with their business model. And for three, Brent isn't afraid of transparency which goes a long ways in building trust (see his offerings). IS there still work to do on the auction bidding anomalies, of course. But PWCC is doing a fine job at the moment and their sales are proving it out.

.

Agree. At this time, with their current fee structure and wildly successful business model, I see no compelling reason to consign a graded sportscard with anyone else. Arguments can be made to the contrary of course.

[bxb]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

Agree. At this time, with their current fee structure and wildly successful business model, I see no compelling reason to consign a graded sportscard with anyone else.

Agreed. Hopefully, continued success will not lead to them raising their fees, in which case they would fall back into the crowd of other AHs.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Leon

An educated consumer is the best consumer. A few months ago I bought a card from Deans for $2480 and sold it a month later for a $1200 profit. Otherwise, on my other deals with them I will probably lose about $200. All in all not that bad. I just need to work on the $200 mistake(s). I like Dean's Cards, personally.

AND to get back on track, there are reasons PWCC is kicking butt. For one, they advertise a ton. For two, they seem to be bringing stellar cards to market with their business model. And for three, Brent isn't afraid of transparency which goes a long ways in building trust (see his offerings). IS there still work to do on the auction bidding anomalies, of course. But PWCC is doing a fine job at the moment and their sales are proving it out.

.

They also have some very dedicated bidders .... here is an idea of what you can see on just about every item they offer. Maybe not 100% on all, but you can see how loyal a following these guys have!

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 54
Items bid on: 23
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 100% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Neal

They also have some very dedicated bidders .... here is an idea of what you can see on just about every item they offer. Maybe not 100% on all, but you can see how loyal a following these guys have!

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 54
Items bid on: 23
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 100% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

Yes if you consider consignors bidding on their own items to be loyalty