Is 3000 hits a big deal or overrated?

[packs]

So you think Chili Davis and Mickey Vernon and Andre Dawson were all better hitters than Ichiro?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

So you think Chili Davis and Mickey Vernon and Andre Dawson were all better hitters than Ichiro?

No, i think chili davis was better than Vernon..

i think Andrew Dawson is very close correct for the 10 prime years...nobody wants ichiro or dawsnon when he is 40 years old or 39....for the prime years its very close... Dawson did obtain 10 allstar/top 25 mvp finishes and won many gold gloves (defense doesnt matter but just saying he wasnt always a bad knees guy)......he also lost a lot of at bats because he was in the NL where the pitcher makes more outs than a DH does in the AL...

The fact that it is so close is my point..you hear nothing about total bases but there is a countdown for hits..

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by packs

So you think Chili Davis and Mickey Vernon and Andre Dawson were all better hitters than Ichiro?

Andre Dawson career wRC+ : 117

wOBA: .350

Chili Davis career wRC+ : 118

wOBA: .354

Mickey Vernon career wRC+: 115

wOBA: .362

Ichiro career wRC+ : 105

wOBA: .330


so yes, all the hitters you mentioned were better at hitting than ICHIRO

[bravos4evr]

I would take Ichiro over Thome for the top of the order. The only way I take Thome is if I have others just as good as getting on base and he is an upgrade over my middle of the lineup guys. Ichiro is also a good fielder. Thome is not.

Well, for starters, we aren't talking about defense but hitting.

as far as who would be a better lead off man?

ichiro career OBP : .357

Thome career OBP : .402

Thome is so much better a hitter than Ichiro it's not even close, his wRC+ of 145 and wOBA of .405 is elite level, Ichiro is just a tad above avg for two reasons, he wasn't as good at getting on base nor was he as good hitting for power.

Another thing to consider about the 3000 hit club is that it doesn't consider walks either.

Thome hits + walks = 4076 , Isolated Power? .278

Ichiro hits + walks = 3620, ISO? .091


Ichiro was 5% above league avg for his career and this demonstrates how 3000 hits doesn't make one an elite hitter, he wasn't an elite hitter for his career, just slightly above avg because power is important. NOW, that being said, he was a quality player because of his total game of slightly above avg hitting, elite defense and elite baserunning, but his bat alone was not elite.

[packs]

So Ichiro leads the league in hits 5 years in a row, collects 200 hits 10 seasons in a row, sets the major league record for single season hits, leads the league in hitting twice, hits 350 or higher 4 times, but he's not better than Chili Davis and he's only a slight above average hitter.

Okay.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

So Ichiro leads the league in hits 5 years in a row, collects 200 hits 10 seasons in a row, sets the major league record for single season hits, leads the league in hitting twice, hits 350 or higher 4 times, but he's not better than Chili Davis and he's only a slight above average hitter.

Okay.

I not say that so i know your comment is direct to Bravos...I said you have have to compare Ichiro to Andre Dawson. I think Bravos point was just the impact on hitting and actually winning games.

But shallow batting average is just that.. Walks are as good as hits. People that fall in love with .325 also fall in love with 3000 hits. Ill take a guy hitting .270 with 30 homers and 350 total bases over a .350 hitter with zero power and 30 steals with 250 total bases any day of the weak no matter how many 200 hit seasons he gets or batting titles....

Martin Prado is close to winning a batting title in the NL, hes not even a top 30 hitter if that in the NL.....batting titles dont mean that much in terms of someone being an 'elite' player unless there are other stats to back it up..

[packs]

Well I would say Ichiro IS an elite player and in his prime comparable to Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs. He was not Chili Davis, nor was he a league average player in the box or slightly better than league average.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

Well I would say Ichiro IS an elite player and in his prime comparable to Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs. He was not Chili Davis, nor was he a league average player in the box or slightly better than league average.

Chili was only 100th all time in total bases and Andre Dawson is 30th.

Mickey Vernon was 100th in total hits, i think Andrew Dawson was a lot better than Mickey Vernon..

You can be elite at what you do but still not translate into run production....the best pinch hitter in the world for example can only do so much and would never make the Hall of Fame.. Ichiro was great for getting hits.. but hes not even top 100 in total bases partly because he was in Japan but thats how it is..

Plus Ichiro is going to pass Chili Davis in all likelihood this year so no point for me to compare, by the way Joe Dimaggio is 97th on the all time total bases list. (only 2200 or so hits because in military for 3 years) I think Joe D. was a pretty good player if you want to compare them.. so basically someone 97th of all time in total bases compares well to number 30 of all time hits...


Also interesting that Ichiro is exactly #100 in runs right now and guess who he just passed? You guessed it Andre Dawson. So they scored basically the same amount of runs and Dawson blows him away with power. You can't argue about how many seasons they each play in this argument, because tallying 3000 hits is all about counting up stats....tons of guys didnt get to 3000 hits due to lack of seasons but it is what is.

total bases translates just as well or not better than total hits...i dont know why its not celebrated at least 1/100th as much as hits.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Well I would say Ichiro IS an elite player and in his prime comparable to Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs. He was not Chili Davis, nor was he a league average player in the box or slightly better than league average.

I also think Ichiro was an elite player. Don't think he was at the level of Boggs or even Gwynn. Well maybe closer to Gwynn who had his best 4 year stretch from age 34-37 in the steroid era. I will add I am biased because Wade is my all-time favorite player. Even with that taken into account Ichiro was not on his level.

Also 3000 hits is a very big deal.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by packs

So Ichiro leads the league in hits 5 years in a row, collects 200 hits 10 seasons in a row, sets the major league record for single season hits, leads the league in hitting twice, hits 350 or higher 4 times, but he's not better than Chili Davis and he's only a slight above average hitter.

Okay.

sorry, but those are the FACTS. 105 wRC+ for his career and 100 is average. power matters. He was an elite PLAYER because of his defense and baserunning combined with his hitting from 2001-2010, and if he had quit after 2010 his bat would have been closer to 20% above avg, but for his career, his hitting has only been 5% above avg.

I know many of you still cling to batting average , but the truth is that it is a pretty worthless statistic. It doesn't tell us much at all about hitter production because it ignores walks and it ignores the types of hits a player gets.

Time to evolve with the game folks or get left behind. We have better, newer, more accurate statistics these days, and teams use these numbers as well. It's the scientific expansion of baseball.