1969 Topps Alcindor PSA 10

[jb67]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Pop 1 of a RC of one of the all time greats. I'm surprised some of these cards, like the Ryan and Rose up at Heritage, don't go for even more. This card might never hit the market again in a 10, or if it does it could be years or decades down the road. For those that have a net worth of 100s of millions, a few hundred grand to own the best example of a card in existence is just a drop in the bucket.

+1.

[ruth-gehrig]

Serious question....What are the odds that a card grader could be "bought off" to give a legitimate 8 or 9 card a Gem Mint 10??

[CMIZ5290]

Outstanding question Michael. I damn sure would not want to bet against it from ever having happened....

[botn]

I cannot speak to anyone being bought off but I feel the 10 grade in most instances is completely arbitrary and predicated solely on who submitted it, especially now.

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Serious question....What are the odds that a card grader could be "bought off" to give a legitimate 8 or 9 card a Gem Mint 10??

In my opinion they are high since the grading process is both quantitative and qualitative not solely quantitative. Given that there is that degree of judgement involved who is to say or who is to prove that someone acted improperly. With that uncertainty I would think someone might be tempted to act less than fully above board.

[iwantitiwinit]

Additionally I think paying 400k for a piece of cardboard produced as recently as 1969 is crazy. So many other things I can think of that I would personally rather have for 400k. Like a 911 gt3 and a 28 ft regulator. Though I realize the person bidding 400k already has them plus anything else he probably wants.

[bxb]

There is something unsettling about a multi-million dollar market that rises or falls on the whim of one person's opinion in a grading room.

[sushihotwings]

I wish PSA was more transparent in the process of checks and balances. It would be easy enough to explain without giving away any trade secrets. Are the graders really masked as to who the submitter is? Are there extra sets of eyes and opinions given on high value cards before it is slabbed? Simple questions really. I know all the skeptics will laugh at the idea that PSA is not telling the grader if the card is from a high value customer, but they could attempt to explain better to assure the public.
Dave Lamont

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by sushihotwings

I wish PSA was more transparent in the process of checks and balances. It would be easy enough to explain without giving away any trade secrets. Are the graders really masked as to who the submitter is? Are there extra sets of eyes and opinions given on high value cards before it is slabbed? Simple questions really. I know all the skeptics will laugh at the idea that PSA is not telling the grader if the card is from a high value customer, but they could attempt to explain better to assure the public.
Dave Lamont

Valid points Dave! I would think the graders know who is sending in the big orders by customers. I'm guessing when a "big customer" sends in 300+ cards, the graders knows, "looks like we got another order from John Doe's Cards again". Now, with that said, brings another question, are these graders under pressure to have x-amount of cards graded per minute? If that is the case, I could see grader(s) rushing big orders. Plus, its a friday, Grader #4 has a 300+ order to complete by 5pm, does he just zip through everything to get it done?

I'm pretty sure any grading company aka business takes "care" of their big customers. Just like in any business.

Back on point, I would never pay that much for 1969 card. Granted I think the whole "Gem Mint" grade is a scam! I could see someone paying that much for a Cobb or any other "major" card from the early 1900's. Those cards are much much more rare than any 60s cards. Sure you could say there are only 12 PSA 10 1969 Jabbar's but, keep in mind there are thousands+ of that card that exist. I guess to each his own...

Nick

[eomint]

It's even more unsettling, far more, when your next President is going to be either totally unpredictable or a proven corrupt pathological liar. And you're worried about the subjective nature of card grading lol...no system is perfect, there will always be a bell curve of talent and honesty in every industry, coin grading has withstood the test of time, I believe card grading, and PSA in particular, though not a pure science, is the best thing we have. PSA being a public company (CLCT) is also going to be subject to SEC regulations and I believe has superior corporate governance. That's about all you can ask for.

[sushihotwings]

Joe Orlando has it good at PSA. I am sure it is fun to be surrounded by the best memoriablia in existence day in and day out and I am sure he gets paid mega bucks for it. He is not going to do something illegal or unethical for any small amount of payoff and I suspect he runs a tight ship for his own job security. He would be foolish to risk what he has going for a few extra bucks to upgrade certain customers cards.
Dave Lamont

[itjclarke]

IMO, even with any checks and balances, and regulation in place, or the best intentions of the company, it would just take one rogue grader/insider (or worse, more than one) to potentially really hurt, or destroy consumer confidence.

I'm not saying I think it is happening, nor that it will, simply that it could. Given the absolute explosion in price of PSA 10s, and the fact that there is such an incremental price disparity between each high grade, 8 to 9, 9 to 10, the ingredients are there. I think this is made much more difficult to enforce given the subjective nature of grading, and that just about any card graded in the 9-10 range could be reasonably assigned +/- its grade. See any "gem mint" card with an OC back btw. That card could be a 9, or a 10, and the price gap between those two could be tens, even hundreds of thousands. A person manipulating grades would only need do so a handful of times to make some huge money.

I agree with a previous poster that transparency is good. If the submitting parties are truly, beyond any doubt masked from the graders, that's a good start. Then perhaps every card that receives a 9 or 10 initially must be routed past several graders, each of whom have no idea other graders have already assigned it a 10. If say 5 of 5 senior graders independently give a card a 10, it actually receives that 10.

Again, I am not saying I think this is happening, nor am I speaking to PSA's (or any other TPG's) integrity. It just seems the potential for temptation is there, especially now with all the registry 1 of 1, gem mint fever. I don't typically get cards graded (submitted twice, total of 4-5 cards) and don't have a dog in the fight between the PSA's, BVG's, SGC's of the world, however like many collectors, I would be greatly impacted if any one of those companies were ever undone by a scandal, as I have dozens of cards graded by each.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by bxb

There is something unsettling about a multi-million dollar market that rises or falls on the whim of one person's opinion in a grading room.

+1. Especially if that card was graded a few years ago. Th whole thing is out of control. If you got a 9 or 10 graded from several years ago, you can get it into a new holder at the same grade, even though the grading standards may have changed.

Look at that 1 of 1 PSA 10 OPC Gretzky that recently sold. Just by looking at it, it's not a "perfect" card. I've seen too many nicer 9's and even some 8's that would compete with or beat it, condition wise. And that is 10 years after 1969.

[ruth-gehrig]

Additionally, what safeguards are in place to prevent a grader from submitting their own cards, say through a family member or friend that they get to grade themselves??

[Marckus99]

Utterly ridiculous. Period.

With just $100k, you could buy a BUNCH of wax boxes and pull a fresh one or several for that matter.

Insane.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Marckus99

Utterly ridiculous. Period.

With just $100k, you could buy a BUNCH of wax boxes and pull a fresh one or several for that matter.

Insane.

Do you have a link to several 1969 Topps Basketball wax boxes for sale?

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Do you have a link to several 1969 Topps Basketball wax boxes for sale?

..If anybody wants me , I'll be in the basement rec room for the next few hours......THANK YOU MARK MURPHY !!


...

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Marckus99

Utterly ridiculous. Period.

With just $100k, you could buy a BUNCH of wax boxes and pull a fresh one or several for that matter.

Insane.

Lol if it were that easy the card wouldn't be a pop of only 1. Good luck with your break though. Let me know how it goes.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Additionally, what safeguards are in place to prevent a grader from submitting their own cards, say through a family member or friend that they get to grade themselves??

The fact that the grading process is not more transparent suggests that people should buy the card not the holder. $400k for cardboard that isn't rare except for the number assigned to it by a third-party grading company is just irresponsible. So you have the only PSA 10 on August 19, 2016. What that company or number will mean with respect to that card or otherwise in 5 or 10 years is no certainty. It's just a bet made by someone with ridiculous amounts of disposable wealth.

To each his own, by I much prefer relative card scarcity to high grade scarcity.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The fact that the grading process is not more transparent suggests that people should buy the card not the holder. $400k for cardboard that isn't rare except for the number assigned to it by a third-party grading company is just irresponsible. So you have the only PSA 10 on August 19, 2016. What that company or number will mean with respect to that card or otherwise in 5 or 10 years is no certainty. It's just a bet made by someone with ridiculous amounts of disposable wealth.

To each his own, by I much prefer relative card scarcity to high grade scarcity.

Totally agree with this. Any number of things could burst a 1 of 1 PSA 10's bubble. Perhaps 4-5 more grade out as 10's over the next few years (totally possible with a 1969 card)... or worse, and in line with a previous post, perhaps a scandal is eventually outed, in which graders, or those paying off graders are buying and submitting 9's in order to have them bumped to 10's. Given today's market there could be hundreds of thousands, even millions to be earned, on easy to find, relatively affordable (8-9's of most of these are easily attainable) cards awaiting a bump to 10. I cannot imagine the wages/salary of a grader are enough to full offset the temptation to cash in, that one (or more) may eventually feel. It all seems pretty precarious, with an awful lot outside the buyers' control.

[sushihotwings]

One thing that I believe helps to keep PSA and it's graders on the honest side is that they are publicly traded. This means they have a board of directors which are there to maximize shareholder value but to also act as a check and balance system for management. This can help to prevent shenanigans but nothing is foolproof of course. Plenty of publicly traded scandals as well. Enron etc. As for the Alcinder rookie price, of course it is hard to imagine for normal folk like us to understand. But people paying these prices are CEOs of large corporations, hedge fund guys etc. they have the disposable income and like expensive toys. They also didn't get to where they are in life by being completely foolish with their money. Very rare and one of kind items will always have a market with the uber rich.
David Lamont