T206 Who should be a HOFer that isn't ???

rats60 · #1 09-03-2016, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

wins are a pretty worthless stat for judging individual production and yes his ERA is low, but his FIP is near 3 and for his era, it's good but not HOF worthy.

This is one of the examples of how old time "baseball card" stats really don't tell us how good a player is . His number look average once you get below the surface. 27.3 WAR over 15 years isn't much more than that, even if you say it was 50% low against him that would only make him a 40 WAR player, and over that career, once again, pretty avg.

ETA: during his career (1905-1917) Reulbach was 16th among starters in WAR, 27th in ERA and way down in the 150's in FIP. (we are talking an era, where the highest ERA among qualified starters (from 05-17) was 4.02!!!)

FIP is pretty worthless for deadball pitchers. You might as well say he didn't strike out a lot of batters and there are better stats for that. The pitcher that wins the game is the one who allows the fewest runs. Reulbach had an ERA+ of 123. That is better than many pitchers in the HOF including 300 game winner Eddie Plank. That is 9th among deadball pitchers post 1901. Wins and winning percentage mean a lot for this time period when pichers often pitched the whole game. There are certainly worse pitchers in the HOF. That doesn't mean he deserves it, but for this topic, he is one of the best not in.

bbcard1 · #2 09-03-2016, 07:14 AM

There are a lot of colorful players in the t206 set that are good to remember, but in no way hall of fame candidates. That era has have many players honored by HOF inclusion...probably way too many. I could live with Doyle or Dahen fine, but I think guys like Oliva, Murphy and Maris would be more credible fits and I doubt any of the three of them are going to make it. Some of the guys mentioned are real stretches. Their statistics just aren't there. Some of them have the most ______ of any player not in the hall of fame. There will always be a player with the most ________ not in the hall of fame. That is not a criteria for inclusion.

packs · #3 09-03-2016, 01:09 PM

The home run has always been king but Gavvy Cravath doesn't get any love. Six time home run champ. Three years in a row twice. The Babe Ruth prototype.

clydepepper · #4 09-05-2016, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

The home run has always been king but Gavvy Cravath doesn't get any love. Six time home run champ. Three years in a row twice. The Babe Ruth prototype.

at the Baker Bowl? 260 feet?

on my best day, even I might have done that.

Oh, and the home run wasn't king until the Babe made it so.

Topps206 · #5 09-05-2016, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper

at the Baker Bowl? 260 feet?

on my best day, even I might have done that.

Oh, and the home run wasn't king until the Babe made it so.

That's still a lot of black ink in a monstrous peak in his later years and when he debuted it took him a while.

Babe Ruth became synonymous with the home run. It doesn't mean there were no kings before him.

btcarfagno · #6 09-06-2016, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper

at the Baker Bowl? 260 feet?

on my best day, even I might have done that.

Oh, and the home run wasn't king until the Babe made it so.

His career OPS+ is 151. That is park adjusted. Short career, but that is 32nd in the history of the sport.

Tom C

rats60 · #7 09-06-2016, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

His career OPS+ is 151. That is park adjusted. Short career, but that is 32nd in the history of the sport.

Tom C

It is not park adjusted. They adjust for runs scored, but that doesn't account for 265 foot fly balls that he got credited for home runs which would be outs in any other park. He only hit 20 home runs on the road, less than two per season. His OPS at home was .986, on the road .772.

He only played 100 games in 7 seasons. He couldn't stick in the majors with the Red Sox, White Sox or Senators. Only when he made it to the Phillies was he good enough to stick in the majors, taking advantage of the home field. If he was a HOFer, he would have played longer and made it as a full time player before age 31. His career was too short and too home field aided to be a Hall of Famer, in my opinion.

Topps206 · #8 09-06-2016, 08:28 AM

Baker Bowl or not, Cravath had a peak bested by very few in history. He was probably the best player on that 1915 Phillies team which won the pennant. He absolutely should be in.

btcarfagno · #9 09-06-2016, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

It is not park adjusted. They adjust for runs scored, but that doesn't account for 265 foot fly balls that he got credited for home runs which would be outs in any other park. He only hit 20 home runs on the road, less than two per season. His OPS at home was .986, on the road .772.

Polo Grounds left field foul pole was 279 and right field 258. That was for two teams at this time period.

Tom C

bravos4evr · #10 09-03-2016, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

FIP is pretty worthless for deadball pitchers. You might as well say he didn't strike out a lot of batters and there are better stats for that. The pitcher that wins the game is the one who allows the fewest runs. Reulbach had an ERA+ of 123. That is better than many pitchers in the HOF including 300 game winner Eddie Plank. That is 9th among deadball pitchers post 1901. Wins and winning percentage mean a lot for this time period when pichers often pitched the whole game. There are certainly worse pitchers in the HOF. That doesn't mean he deserves it, but for this topic, he is one of the best not in.

not really, if FIP were truly worthless those at the top wouldn't be the best of the era (Walter Johnson, Waddell, Ed Walsh, Joe Wood, Addie Joss, Bender, Mathewson...etc)

Wins still don't mean much even back then because a win is so contingent on offense. Which is not in the pitcher's control.

Plank may have a lower ERA+ (a stat I find seriously lacking) but he's 13th in FIP during the dead ball era.

Reulbach would have one of the worst K/BB ratios of anyone from that era in the hall. Sure there are probably worse pitchers in, but if the only standard we use is the worst guy in we can rationalize nearly anyone.

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