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  #1  
Old 09-08-2016, 11:41 AM
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Ed Hans
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They're different logos, at least. Look closely at the elephant's legs, tusks, mouth and tail and you'll see what I mean.
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Old 09-08-2016, 11:56 AM
sac_bunt sac_bunt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edhans View Post
They're different logos, at least. Look closely at the elephant's legs, tusks, mouth and tail and you'll see what I mean.

Ok thanks. IMO they are more similar then not.
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2016, 12:16 PM
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Thanks for the interest guys. I believe the sweaters are one and the same, but we can each draw our own conclusions.

Does anyone have any information on the questions I have asked? Other photos of Bender in a sweater, copies of mine with a firm date on back or from a dated newspaper? Any info on the ribbon? I believe that although the trim and cap stripes may have been black the sweaters were blue, any confirmation on this?

Thanks!
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Old 09-08-2016, 01:00 PM
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I took a look at the New York Times archives to see what I could learn. Unfortunately I didn't see anything that suggested why Bender was wearing a ribbon on his sweater or what the colors would have been. Only thing I found of interest was the usage of the same Bender image (cropped) in the October 25, 1911 edition which followed game four.

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Old 09-08-2016, 03:57 PM
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I'm sure you did the same web search that everyone reading this thread is now doing. The only relevant image that appears is a Mitchell & Ness version of a very similar sweater (the elephant is positioned at a distinct angle that isn't consistent with your photo, etc.). Their sweater is dark blue. Perhaps you can find a way to contact them and ask how and why they determined the color of the 1911 sweater to be that shade of blue?
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Old 09-08-2016, 04:31 PM
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This is without a doubt the longest sweater discussion I've ever read, much less a sweater with an elephant on it.

At this point, should we call Guinness or call for a Guinness?
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Old 09-08-2016, 05:56 PM
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Darron, thanks for the note about the sweater color, I saw that and will follow up with reproduction company.

David, your post with the October 25, 1911 NYT coverage is very enlightening, perhaps even more so than you thought. Chief Bender did pitch and win Game 4 on October 24th in Shibe Park. The Bender cropped shot of my photo attributes it to American Press Association. Of particular relevance is the back of my Type 1 photo showing a period American Press Association stamp.

Bender-sweater-back-crop.jpg

Here is the enlarged cropped shot of Bender as well as the adjoining Game 4 action shot also attributed to American Press Association.

NYT-10-25-1911-Bender-crop.jpg NYT-10-25-1911---game-action.jpg

I checked the NYT for all "day after" recaps of each of the six World Series games. It was a similar format for each day and predominately displays day of game photos attributed to American Press Association.

At the very least we can say the Bender photo was taken no later than October 25, 1911. While it may have been a file photo, I believe there is a distinct possibility my photo was taken October 24th on the day he pitched and was contemporaneous with the other game action photos the American Press Association provided to the NYT for use.

A couple of great tips, keep them coming!
Last edited by T206Jim; 09-08-2016 at 05:59 PM.
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2016, 10:09 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sac_bunt View Post
Ok thanks. IMO they are more similar then not.
similar doesn't cut it they have to be identical. They are, to me, clearly not the same logo. The gap between the front legs is VERY different. The distance between the lower tusk and the jaw is VERY different. The length of the upper portion of the trunk is significantly different. You can't have the same sweater with ANY discrepancies let alone ones this large.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:58 PM
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In Glory of Their Times there is a pic of Bender in this sweater if someone wants to scan it.
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  #10  
Old 09-17-2016, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
similar doesn't cut it they have to be identical. They are, to me, clearly not the same logo. The gap between the front legs is VERY different. The distance between the lower tusk and the jaw is VERY different. The length of the upper portion of the trunk is significantly different. You can't have the same sweater with ANY discrepancies let alone ones this large.
Here is the explanation:
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:57 PM
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Thanks for the insight Mark. You more clearly and definitively stated the point I attempted to make earlier about the difference being in the clarity of the photos. Would SABR happen to have any other photos from 1911 of Bender, or any other Athletic for that matter, in a sweater with a ribbon or anything else tied to a buttonhole?
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Old 09-18-2016, 12:24 AM
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Jim - Not that I know of.
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Old 09-18-2016, 06:42 AM
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Very cool Mark, I LOVE learning things like this! Also didn't notice it before, but there is an obvious hole in his left sleeve (the right as we look at it) in the clearer photo. You can actually JUST make out the hole in the "bloomed" photo. If you look up from the speck of white on his sleeve and a little bit to the right there it is, in exactly the same spot relative to the shoulder seam.
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