Value of T206 E.Collins??

bravos4evr · #1 09-24-2016, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Both are elite Hall of Famers. But Hornsby is on his own level as far as the position is concerned.

hit the nail right on the head, Hornsby is easily the greatest 2b of all time and one of the 4 or 5 greatest hitters of all time. The guy was a beast.

I remember this story about Hornsby from the HOF umpire Bill Klem " a rookie pitcher was facing RH and he threw a pitch or two that Klem called balls and the pitcher barked "those were strikes" , Klem took off his mask and said "son, when you throw a strike, Mr Hornsby will let you know"

Yoda · #2 09-24-2016, 01:44 PM

I read once that Hornsby refused to read a newspaper in the off-season for fear it would impair his batting eye. That's dedication to your craft.

CMIZ5290 · #3 09-24-2016, 05:23 PM

Once again, I'm not disputing Hornsby as the greatest ever, he was. I'm simply saying the gap between him and Lajoie is much closer that Bill and Nick are indicating....Lajoie was an incredible player....

bravos4evr · #4 09-24-2016, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Once again, I'm not disputing Hornsby as the greatest ever, he was. I'm simply saying the gap between him and Lajoie is much closer that Bill and Nick are indicating....Lajoie was an incredible player....

Hornsby-

career slash of .358/.434/.577 (2nd/8th/10th all time among all players)

career wOBA .459 (5th all time )

career wRC+ 173 (tied 3rd all time)

career fangraphs WAR 130.3 (9th all time in the fewest plate appearances of anyone in the top 12 other than Lou Gehrig)

Lajoie:

slash line of .338/.380/.467 (21st/164th/272nd all time)

career wOBA .401 ( 77th all time)

career wRC+ 144 (45th all time)

fangraphs WAR 102.2 (19th all time in 1015 more plate appearances and 121 more games than Hornsby)

both are all time great players, but man Hornsby is comparable to Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Williams, Mays .Speaker, Aaron. Lajoie is more in the Ott, Rickey Henderson, Schmidt, Frank Robinson, Foxx club.

Both clubs are elite, the upper club is the absolute elite of the elite!!!

P.S. this is not a criticism of Lajoie, he is the 2nd greatest 2b of all time. rather it is a celebration of how incredible of a player Hornsby was. One of the top 4 or 5 best hitters to ever play the game.(and one of the ten all around greatest players)

CMIZ5290 · #5 09-24-2016, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

Hornsby-

career slash of .358/.434/.577 (2nd/8th/10th all time among all players)

career wOBA .459 (5th all time )

career wRC+ 173 (tied 3rd all time)

career fangraphs WAR 130.3 (9th all time in the fewest plate appearances of anyone in the top 12 other than Lou Gehrig)

Lajoie:

slash line of .338/.380/.467 (21st/164th/272nd all time)

career wOBA .401 ( 77th all time)

career wRC+ 144 (45th all time)

fangraphs WAR 102.2 (19th all time in 1015 more plate appearances and 121 more games than Hornsby)

both are all time great players, but man Hornsby is comparable to Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Williams, Mays .Speaker, Aaron. Lajoie is more in the Ott, Rickey Henderson, Schmidt, Frank Robinson, Foxx club.

Both clubs are elite, the upper club is the absolute elite of the elite!!!

P.S. this is not a criticism of Lajoie, he is the 2nd greatest 2b of all time. rather it is a celebration of how incredible of a player Hornsby was. One of the top 4 or 5 best hitters to ever play the game.(and one of the ten all around greatest players)

Speaker? really? How do you put these two guys in two different levels? And please, leave the bullshit graphics and WAR alone....TALK baseball....Speaker and Lajoie's hitting stats almost mirror each other. Also, Hornsby comparable to Ruth? I don't think so.......Also, where do you put Mantle??

bravos4evr · #6 09-24-2016, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Speaker? really? How do you put these two guys in two different levels? And please, leave the bullshit graphics and WAR alone....TALK baseball....Speaker and Lajoie's hitting stats almost mirror each other.

I put them at 2 different levels because anyone who understands the game of baseball knows that Speaker is an elite of the elite player and Lajoie is only an elite player. Compare their stats (the ones that aren't worthless like avg, rbi and runs) and Speaker is on another level.

btw, you ignored the slash line that showed Hornsby as top ten or so in all three and Lajoie only near the top in the fairly worthless batting avg stat.

Speaker has a career 157 wRC+ (that is weighted runs created, that looks at the type of hits they got park and league adjusted and is probably the best "single number" hitting stat out there as far as judging individual production is concerned.) Lajoie has a 144. Speaker was 57% better hitter than average in his career for nearly 12,000 plate appearances, that's impressive stuff. (good enough for a tie for 12th all time just in hitting tied with McGwire and Johnny Mize) over 22 seasons! (hence the 130+ WAR) Lajoie is tied or 43rd all time over 21 seasons (also amazingly impressive)

but seriously tho, Speaker is in another tier.

time to learn the new metrics, evolve as the game evolves. It's not hard to understand or "made up" nor does it have anything to do with fantasy baseball as so many people say. it's just the science evolving and using the data in a more accurate way. It's just statistics, why so much hatred and anger about them?

you either evolve with the game or you end up being left behind. the choice is up to you. learning is fun!

CMIZ5290 · #7 09-24-2016, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

I put them at 2 different levels because anyone who understands the game of baseball knows that Speaker is an elite of the elite player and Lajoie is only an elite player. Compare their stats (the ones that aren't worthless like avg, rbi and runs) and Speaker is on another level.

btw, you ignored the slash line that showed Hornsby as top ten or so in all three and Lajoie only near the top in the fairly worthless batting avg stat.

Speaker has a career 157 wRC+ (that is weighted runs created, that looks at the type of hits they got park and league adjusted and is probably the best "single number" hitting stat out there as far as judging individual production is concerned.) Lajoie has a 144. Speaker was 57% better hitter than average in his career for nearly 12,000 plate appearances, that's impressive stuff. (good enough for a tie for 12th all time just in hitting tied with McGwire and Johnny Mize) over 22 seasons! (hence the 130+ WAR) Lajoie is tied or 43rd all time over 21 seasons (also amazingly impressive)

but seriously tho, Speaker is in another tier.

time to learn the new metrics, evolve as the game evolves. It's not hard to understand or "made up" nor does it have anything to do with fantasy baseball as so many people say. it's just the science evolving and using the data in a more accurate way. It's just statistics, why so much hatred and anger about them?

you either evolve with the game or you end up being left behind. the choice is up to you. learning is fun!

Is this why you're an Atlanta Brave fan? If so, it makes sense now. By the way, why didn't you mention Mantle in your previous analysis?

CMIZ5290 · #8 09-24-2016, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

I put them at 2 different levels because anyone who understands the game of baseball knows that Speaker is an elite of the elite player and Lajoie is only an elite player. Compare their stats (the ones that aren't worthless like avg, rbi and runs) and Speaker is on another level.

btw, you ignored the slash line that showed Hornsby as top ten or so in all three and Lajoie only near the top in the fairly worthless batting avg stat.

Speaker has a career 157 wRC+ (that is weighted runs created, that looks at the type of hits they got park and league adjusted and is probably the best "single number" hitting stat out there as far as judging individual production is concerned.) Lajoie has a 144. Speaker was 57% better hitter than average in his career for nearly 12,000 plate appearances, that's impressive stuff. (good enough for a tie for 12th all time just in hitting tied with McGwire and Johnny Mize) over 22 seasons! (hence the 130+ WAR) Lajoie is tied or 43rd all time over 21 seasons (also amazingly impressive)

but seriously tho, Speaker is in another tier.

time to learn the new metrics, evolve as the game evolves. It's not hard to understand or "made up" nor does it have anything to do with fantasy baseball as so many people say. it's just the science evolving and using the data in a more accurate way. It's just statistics, why so much hatred and anger about them?

you either evolve with the game or you end up being left behind. the choice is up to you. learning is fun!

So....Based on this, Speaker and Johnny Mize are comparable in your data??

rats60 · #9 09-25-2016, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

I put them at 2 different levels because anyone who understands the game of baseball knows that Speaker is an elite of the elite player and Lajoie is only an elite player. Compare their stats (the ones that aren't worthless like avg, rbi and runs) and Speaker is on another level.

btw, you ignored the slash line that showed Hornsby as top ten or so in all three and Lajoie only near the top in the fairly worthless batting avg stat.

Speaker has a career 157 wRC+ (that is weighted runs created, that looks at the type of hits they got park and league adjusted and is probably the best "single number" hitting stat out there as far as judging individual production is concerned.) Lajoie has a 144. Speaker was 57% better hitter than average in his career for nearly 12,000 plate appearances, that's impressive stuff. (good enough for a tie for 12th all time just in hitting tied with McGwire and Johnny Mize) over 22 seasons! (hence the 130+ WAR) Lajoie is tied or 43rd all time over 21 seasons (also amazingly impressive)

but seriously tho, Speaker is in another tier.

time to learn the new metrics, evolve as the game evolves. It's not hard to understand or "made up" nor does it have anything to do with fantasy baseball as so many people say. it's just the science evolving and using the data in a more accurate way. It's just statistics, why so much hatred and anger about them?

you either evolve with the game or you end up being left behind. the choice is up to you. learning is fun!

Agree with Kevin. This post is exactly what is wrong with WAR. Ave, RBI and Runs Scored are 3 of the most important stats. By ignoring them, you are not evolving, you are devolving. The goal of the game is to score runs. The team that does, wins the game, not the one who gets the most walks, baserunners, etc. WAR doesn't care about what wins games, but greatly over values a truly worthless stat, walks. It is also pretty much ignores half of the equation, run prevention. And maybe one day they will truly adjust for park, instead of just claiming they do.

We all understand that raw RBI and runs numbers are flawed, but rather than throw them away and just use fantasy stats, you should look at how players perform when given the opportunity to score runs. Who cares about a guy who walks with RISP and leads to another goose egg? What is truly valuable is the guy who gets a hit and drives in runs.

WAR is not science, it is made up (by people who I wonder if they ever watch the game). It will be time to use new metrics when they actually reflect what they are supposed to. Insulting those who observe that the emperor has no clothes is never going to evolve the way we look at stats.

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