OT - New Hall of Famers: Bagwell, Raines and Ivan Rodriguez

[nat]

Whether its easier or harder to walk vs. hit for average isn't really germane to the discussion. Raines and Gwynn reached base almost exactly the same number of times, and contributed very similar amounts of value to their teams. It's true that a walk isn't as good as a hit, but it's almost as good as a single (what Gwynn was hitting), and the fact that Raines would then go on to steal second helped him a lot.

On Dunn versus Jeter: Jeter was a slightly better hitter than Dunn. Jeter got on base at a better rate than Dunn, Dunn hit for more power. The reason that Jeter will be a deserving hall of famer, and Dunn will not, is that Jeter was a good base runner and could play shortstop, whereas Dunn was a horrific base runner, and possibly the worst fielder of all time.*

*Note for Bravesfan: I know that Jeter had a lower Rfield/G than Dunn, but the positional adjustment more than makes up for it. (Dunn at shortstop would have been hilarious in a tragic sort of way.)

[ejharrington]

The Hall of Fame by definition should be geared towards FAMOUS players whose careers were deemed elite. There are different ways to measure whether they were elite (i.e., WAR and SABR-metrics, traditional stats, etc.) but statistics alone cannot be the determining measure otherwise there would be no need to have a vote; there would be bright statistical lines to determine who gets in (e.g., JAWS).

As a 47 year old who has watched baseball my entire life, Curt Schilling, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Manny Ramirez, and Sammy Sosa were some of the best ballplayers I have ever saw, are well-known to both fans and non-fans of baseball, have elite statistics, and were central figures in some of the most memorable moments in baseball history.

These players, along with no-longer eligible Mark McGuire, Pete Rose, and Keith Hernandez, should clearly be in the Hall of Fame.

No offense to Tim Raines, Vlad Guerrero, Trevor Hoffman, etc., but when you look at their bodies of work they simply are not on the level of the players I noted above.

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

The Hall of Fame by definition should be geared towards FAMOUS players whose careers were deemed elite. There are different ways to measure whether they were elite (i.e., WAR and SABR-metrics, traditional stats, etc.) but statistics alone cannot be the determining measure otherwise there would be no need to have a vote; there would be bright statistical lines to determine who gets in (e.g., JAWS).

As a 47 year old who has watched baseball my entire life, Curt Schilling, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Manny Ramirez, and Sammy Sosa were some of the best ballplayers I have ever saw, are well-known to both fans and non-fans of baseball, have elite statistics, and were central figures in some of the most memorable moments in baseball history.

These players, along with no-longer eligible Mark McGuire, Pete Rose, and Keith Hernandez, should clearly be in the Hall of Fame.

No offense to Tim Raines, Vlad Guerrero, Trevor Hoffman, etc., but when you look at their bodies of work they simply are not on the level of the players I noted above.

You lost me at no Vlad and put Keith Hernandez on there. Outside of being a good fielding 1 bagger, what did he do? Average is every way. Will Clark was better is every offensive category and nobody is making an argument for him.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by sycks22

You lost me at no Vlad and put Keith Hernandez on there. Outside of being a good fielding 1 bagger, what did he do? Average is every way. Will Clark was better is every offensive category and nobody is making an argument for him.

They were similar players (I might give a slight edge to Clark on offense and an edge to Hernandez on defense) although SABR-metrics rates Hernandez as having a better overall career. But Hernandez also won an MVP and was one of the main contributors to 2 World Championship teams. Plus, everyone knows who Keith Hernandez is which is part of my whole point that the Hall of Fame should consider fame and recognition along with the statistics. I'm not saying Vlad is not necessarily a HOFer, I just don't think he is at the level of the players I listed.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

The Hall of Fame by definition should be geared towards FAMOUS players whose careers were deemed elite. There are different ways to measure whether they were elite (i.e., WAR and SABR-metrics, traditional stats, etc.) but statistics alone cannot be the determining measure otherwise there would be no need to have a vote; there would be bright statistical lines to determine who gets in (e.g., JAWS).

As a 47 year old who has watched baseball my entire life, Curt Schilling, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Manny Ramirez, and Sammy Sosa were some of the best ballplayers I have ever saw, are well-known to both fans and non-fans of baseball, have elite statistics, and were central figures in some of the most memorable moments in baseball history.

These players, along with no-longer eligible Mark McGuire, Pete Rose, and Keith Hernandez, should clearly be in the Hall of Fame.

No offense to Tim Raines, Vlad Guerrero, Trevor Hoffman, etc., but when you look at their bodies of work they simply are not on the level of the players I noted above.

Your idea is basically just another way of saying big market guys from the east and west coast and Chicago who get a ton on hype and are better known personality wise (like Keith) should be in the hall, while guys who toiled in relative obscurity in San Diego and Montreal before small crowds and few reporters should get short shrift.

[bbcard1]

Keith Hernandez also had the Just For Men commercials going for him.

[Snapolit1]

It shouldnt be the hall of popularity.
If Jorge Posada played for the Twins there wouldn't have been a one second discussion as to whether he was HOF material.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Your idea is basically just another way of saying big market guys from the east and west coast and Chicago who get a ton on hype and are better known personality wise (like Keith) should be in the hall, while guys who toiled in relative obscurity in San Diego and Montreal before small crowds and few reporters should get short shrift.

No, because I think Tony Gwynn and Gary Carter spent all or good parts of their careers in San Diego / Montreal and they are no-doubt HOFers. People other than die-hard baseball fans know who they are.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by nat

Whether its easier or harder to walk vs. hit for average isn't really germane to the discussion. Raines and Gwynn reached base almost exactly the same number of times, and contributed very similar amounts of value to their teams. It's true that a walk isn't as good as a hit, but it's almost as good as a single (what Gwynn was hitting), and the fact that Raines would then go on to steal second helped him a lot.

This is the kind of disconnect that makes these discussions impossible. A walk scores a runner from 3rd rarely, never scores a runner from 2nd. A single almost always scores the runner from 3rd and most of the time from 2nd. A single is much more valuable than a walk. The goal of the game is to score runs not win at fantasy baseball.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by rats60

This is the kind of disconnect that makes these discussions impossible. A walk scores a runner from 3rd rarely, never scores a runner from 2nd. A single almost always scores the runner from 3rd and most of the time from 2nd. A single is much more valuable than a walk. The goal of the game is to score runs not win at fantasy baseball.

It really is hard comparing straight up stats without taking it into context. Walks don't earn RBI, but when it was Raines he would get himself in position to score a run.

Raines did steal 808 times ranking him 5th all-time. This is ranked #1 all time for switch hitters.

For the top 10 in stolen bases he ranks 5th in BA behind Ty Cobb, Billy Hamilton, Eddie Collins, and Honus Wagner.

He ranks 54th all time in Runs Scored. His Runs scored 162 game average is 102 this would rank him 40th. Raines Stolen Base 162 avg was 52. Of the top 40 players with higher higher than 102 R/162 games only two have better base stealing averages. That is Billy Hamilton with 93 SB/162 games and Ricky Henderson with 74 SB/162 games.


There are also only two switch hitters higher on the Runs Scored / 162 games list. Mickey Mantle and Chipper Jones

Raines is the only switch hitter to have both a 162 game average of 100+ runs and 20+ bases stolen for a career.

[byrone]

When Gary Carter was elected to the HOF, I read many comments by those who felt he did not belong. Perhaps it is comparable now to Tim Raines recent inclusion in the Hall.

They aren't similar players to one another in many aspects, but they both played the majority of their careers in Montreal. Canada. The hinterlands.

And that might cause many to devalue their greatness.

Just a thought.

[packs]

When are they going to put Lefty O'Doul in the Hall? I didn't even see his name on the last manager's vote, though he wouldn't go in as a manager. He most definitely deserves induction for his contributions to the game. Do you think we'd be talking about Shohei Otani or Masahiro Tanaka if it weren't for old Lefty?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

It really is hard comparing straight up stats without taking it into context. Walks don't earn RBI, but when it was Raines he would get himself in position to score a run.

???

Walks do get you an RBI if the bases are loaded.

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Raines did steal 808 times ranking him 5th all-time. This is ranked #1 all time for switch hitters.

For the top 10 in stolen bases he ranks 5th in BA behind Ty Cobb, Billy Hamilton, Eddie Collins, and Honus Wagner.

He ranks 54th all time in Runs Scored. His Runs scored 162 game average is 102 this would rank him 40th. Raines Stolen Base 162 avg was 52. Of the top 40 players with higher higher than 102 R/162 games only two have better base stealing averages. That is Billy Hamilton with 93 SB/162 games and Ricky Henderson with 74 SB/162 games.


There are also only two switch hitters higher on the Runs Scored / 162 games list. Mickey Mantle and Chipper Jones

Raines is the only switch hitter to have both a 162 game average of 100+ runs and 20+ bases stolen for a career.

The fact that Raines was a switch hitter gets no bonus points from me. It's more of a curiousity than anything else.

The rest of your argument boils down to "He stole a lot of bases!" Yep, he did.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Tabe

???

Walks do get you an RBI if the bases are loaded.

Well yes you are right. Yet the comment I was replying to and even quoted to make it clear. Was referencing a man on second scoring from a walk. I was stating that yes in that case it is true a walk doesn't gain an RBI.

Originally Posted by Tabe

The fact that Raines was a switch hitter gets no bonus points from me. It's more of a curiousity than anything else.

The rest of your argument boils down to "He stole a lot of bases!" Yep, he did.

Ok being a switch hitter gets no bonus points from you. You would be mistaken, though, if you think it doesn't get points for those doing the voting.