PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Leon

People get their panties in a wad when there is a lack of transparency. That is understandable. I have no issue with the cleaner card. It looks great. And I don't blame PSA one bit. I have been told by one of the best graders I know, who has had personal cards conserved and cleaned, and he said there was literally NO way he could tell anything was done to his cards. It isn't PSA's fault if there is nothing to see.

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Leon, I disagree that it isn't psa' fault. First of all, the card is off centered and is at best a 6(st). Second, on a low pop card like this, a cursory search of past sales would have easily revealed the alteration. Heck, our own hawk-eyed member caught it and he isn't a professional grader. When your grading evaluation means the difference between a 5k card and a 35k card, you owe the card community that diligence if you proclaim to be the the best in the business. Like JC said,this was obviously submitted by a preferred client and they over-graded without any research whatsoever.

[Leon]

Disagree all you want to. It is a chat board. The reality is that if a grader can't see a fault they aren't going to discount the grade for it. No matter how much you disagree it won't change that fact.

Originally Posted by orly57

Leon, I disagree that it isn't psa' fault. First of all, the card is off centered and is at best a 6(st). Second, on a low pop card like this, a cursory search of past sales would have easily revealed the alteration. Heck, our own hawk-eyed member caught it and he isn't a professional grader. Like JC said,this was submitted by a preferred client and they over-graded without any research whatsoever.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Leon

Disagree all you want to. It is a chat board. The reality is that if a grader can't see a fault they aren't going to discount the grade for it. No matter how much you disagree it won't change that fact.

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

And if you look and still can't see it you, you still can't take off for it.
I might even go as far as to say even IF they did see the before picture, it is STILL graded correctly today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My guess is that this card has had significant chemical intervention, in which case it is not a "small small" matter as Brent suggests. I hope I am wrong.

And I will go further to say that if he is aware that the card was restored/altered to make a significant difference in its appearance and grade, he is withholding a material fact.

[ullmandds]

Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!

[orly57]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!

This

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!

Someone can't give an honest opinion now without being accused of being on a payroll? Are you in the media LOL...?

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!

++This. I guess I see this as black and white. It's altered, period. don't care if it's chemicals or water. But this is not my world of buying, so can't proclaim to know how it affects the market.

I don't see how this can be good for the hobby. It has all the appearances of fraud and deception. Heck, even PSA can't figure it out.

If someone was doing this to the cards I buy (early 70's PSA 9's), I would be disgusted.

BTW, PSA pooffed the thread over there. Someone posted a really nice pair of photos showing both cards side by side. Can someone do that here within the thread?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My guess is that this card has had significant chemical intervention, in which case it is not a "small small" matter as Brent suggests. I hope I am wrong.

I have no idea, but to just throw out "significant chemical intervention" is a bit reckless in my view. Heck, who knows, maybe distilled water did it.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have no idea, but to just throw out "significant chemical intervention" is a bit reckless in my view. Heck, who knows, maybe distilled water did it.

Water is still a chemical

[Neal]

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[orly57]

I would suspect that they would have to tag it as "altered" if they saw the transformation no? And a 7 with that centering is a stretch in my opinion. I just don't think that I or any of us get a 7 on that card if we sent it in. And why no qualifier on the stain? In this case, the whole card is stained except for the two light areas.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

++

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

Orlando, too true, and perhaps typifies the eternal conflict between buyer and seller, particularly for an amazing card like the WWG JD RC. Where I get lost in the process is what differentiates what is thought of as harmless touch-ups and what becomes, gulp, restoration. I kinda always believed that if the cardboard remained undisturbed, no trimming, no corner restoration etc., then it was ok to sell as long as it was disclosed the card had been superficially improved. Of course, grading impacts all of that. Who knows?

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Orlando, too true, and perhaps typifies the eternal conflict between buyer and seller, particularly for an amazing card like the WWG JD RC. Where I get lost in the process is what differentiates what is thought of as harmless touch-ups and what becomes, gulp, restoration. I kinda always believed that if the cardboard remained undisturbed, no trimming, no corner restoration etc., then it was ok to sell as long as it was disclosed the card had been superficially improved. Of course, grading impacts all of that. Who knows?

Do, you think that PWCC should update their auction of this new information about the card? It seems common practice that other reputable auction houses do this as they learn of things that could affect the sale both good and bad.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Do, you think that PWCC should update their auction of this new information about the card? It seems common practice that other reputable auction houses do this as they learn of things that could affect the sale both good and bad.

If PWCC had prior knowledge that the card had been improved upon when consigned, then absolutely they should have disclosed such fact in their description. Good call.

[aloondilana]

As mentioned earlier. I, as the buyer had no idea about this cards past. I purchased a PSA 7 and that's what the card is.
Cards get crossed all the time are all sellers supposed to disclose the former grade and or grading company that graded it?
eBay would be overloaded with disclosures if that we're the case.
Now I do understand the grade has jumped from a 4-7 but the principle is the same.
The bottom line here is regardless of its past it is now in a PSA 7 holder.
Last I checked PSA is also the premier grading company.
Furthermore, unlike all of you, I have experience purchasing this card, should I go cry to goldin about this?
In fact, even if goldin disclosed this issue, I still would have made my purchase.
What I got is what I purchased. Psa 7.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Do, you think that PWCC should update their auction of this new information about the card? It seems common practice that other reputable auction houses do this as they learn of things that could affect the sale both good and bad.

Really? First, which auction houses are reputable? let's start there.

[Yoda]

In a post Mastro world, every auction house should act in an integral manner (not saying they all do) and inform any and all information about cards consigned if they have all the facts disclosed beforehand I am not going to attempt to piggyback on this thread to start on the pros and cons of the various houses except to say I have my favorite, where I do some pretty serious consigning, and that is FTLG. They are pros. No BS. Let's just get the best we can in an ethical manner and make you some money.

[Beastmode]

Seems to be some messenger killing in this thread. OP made an observation, now there's a great discussion. The only whining I see is the folks that want to sweep this under the rug.

Seller of card already admitted he's a flipper, so I'm sure he knows the risk of buying and selling these types of cards. Comes with that territory, and one of the reasons I don't buy pre-war cards. I don't know enough about them nor what is or isn't acceptable as an alteration.

It's clear to me with the lack of review by PSA, it's buyer beware for these cards.

The current auction is almost break even for seller. He's smart enough to list with the best auction house in the business. And he's benefiting from the a-hole 3rd underbidder with 10 retractions who is string bidding.

[Sean1125]

,

Brent Huigens
8:34 AM (19 minutes ago)

to me
I'm aware of the Net54 thread.

Ultimately small small restoration issues like this (scrapbook removal, wax removal, etc) is a gray area in the hobby but ultimately it's up to PSA and their quality control standards to determine what's acceptable and what is not. Card is a very good 7...looks graded right to me.

Brent
-Sent from mobile

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

,

This is the same response you will get 100 percent of the time.

[dariushou]

This card will likely be won by one of pwcc's disciples and then auctioned off in a few more months at a lower price, but still at a very handsome profit. I see S***N is shilling it up. i think i've written about him in many previous posts...loves to shill those pwcc auctions.

This card has undoubtedly been doctored. I think more than just water, but i think this is besides the point. The stain is crystal clear even on the doctored version. If I sent that card in it would be a 4 or 5 at best. No way do I get that through to PSA and get a 7. Not in a thousand years. This stinks like you know what!

[Snapolit1]

Everyone wants to talk up PWCC shills, but I got to tell you I think their last few auctions came in light on most of what I was looking at. When I look at VCP, I see a lot of things of theirs recently with weak prices. I consigned to them once and wont do it again. All they do is list on eBay and mumble " one of 150,000 things we are selling . . . worthy of consideration . . . " Hell I can do that without their help.


At least the real AHs make an effort to market something nice. Have stuff in auctions now and next month and in neither situation did I pay any commission. Brockleman right now. No seller's commission and they did a nice job writing my stuff up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by dariushou

This card will likely be won by one of pwcc's disciples and then auctioned off in a few more months at a lower price, but still at a very handsome profit. I see S***N is shilling it up. i think i've written about him in many previous posts...loves to shill those pwcc auctions.

This card has undoubtedly been doctored. I think more than just water, but i think this is besides the point. The stain is crystal clear even on the doctored version. If I sent that card in it would be a 4 or 5 at best. No way do I get that through to PSA and get a 7. Not in a thousand years. This stinks like you know what!

He has 24 bids on the item. Also 10 retractions.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He has 24 bids on the item. Also 10 retractions.

Utter nonsense. 10 retractions. Oopps. I did it again.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by dariushou

This card will likely be won by one of pwcc's disciples and then auctioned off in a few more months at a lower price, but still at a very handsome profit. I see S***N is shilling it up. i think i've written about him in many previous posts...loves to shill those pwcc auctions.

This card has undoubtedly been doctored. I think more than just water, but i think this is besides the point. The stain is crystal clear even on the doctored version. If I sent that card in it would be a 4 or 5 at best. No way do I get that through to PSA and get a 7. Not in a thousand years. This stinks like you know what!

So, we have the consignor John Gomez a card flipper, and suspect bidding going with S***N with PWCC on ebay. PWCC is an advertiser of this board and says they will fight shill bidding. Plus PWCC has been made aware of the huge upgrade of grade on the flip after being cleaned by most likely a chemical as Peter said. However we have not seen PWCC make an updated description with new news that may affect the sale. Plus the consignor says no harm no foil and let the past be the past as he will ultimately benefit from the proceeds of this current sale.

I'll be watching to see how PWCC handles this now which I hope they do the right thing for full transparency. not to mention do they cancel bids and block bidders which look to be shilling or doing something to affect the auction like doing a bunch of retractions. I know I've been nailed in PWCC in the past with three bidders all magically retracting their bids and next thing you know I won!!!! I was upset but I followed through with the auction payment but alerted them to what happened and to their credit they gave me the choice of not paying or paying.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

So, we have the consignor John Gomez a card flipper, and suspect bidding going with S***N with PWCC on ebay. PWCC is an advertiser of this board and says they will fight shill bidding. Plus PWCC has been made aware of the huge upgrade of grade on the flip after being cleaned by most likely a chemical as Peter said. However we have not seen PWCC make an updated description with new news that may affect the sale. Plus the consignor says no harm no foil and let the past be the past as he will ultimately benefit from the proceeds of this current sale.

I'll be watching to see how PWCC handles this now which I hope they do the right thing for full transparency. not to mention do they cancel bids and block bidders which look to be shilling or doing something to affect the auction like doing a bunch of retractions. I know I've been nailed in PWCC in the past with three bidders all magically retracting their bids and next thing you know I won!!!! I was upset but I followed through with the auction payment but alerted them to what happened and to their credit they gave me the choice of not paying or paying.

No one should shill bid....

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

,

Reads a bit differently now in light of the recent bombshell doesn't it?