PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who even cares what the card looks like? If PSA says it's a 7, then what difference does it make really? Hell, the seller could just show an image of the flip. Trimmed, recolored, pressed, bleached, soaked, who cares, irrelevant, all trumped by the flip.

I don't rely on grading or buy flips over cards and I see your point in this discussion completely.

I think it only matters in this circumstance due to PWCC's return policy:
"We at PWCC are not professional graders so we trust in the reputation and opinion of 3rd party professional graders. Professional grading is subjective and different 3rd party graders will often disagree over the grading on a single card. Such a disagreement is NOT a justifiable reason for a return with PWCC."

it also matters because if the card shows no signs of chemical cleaning and we are only going on assumption of wrongdoing it does not meet a burden of proof in my mind to start a coup. If you have insider knowledge of what took place could you reveal without sources the method you were told cleaned this card or if you were just told it was cleaned in an untoward way?

If proof exists that is concrete and physical that other than natural items were used, than I think it would weigh my opinion heavily.

I have an opinion of how this was done in my mind also, but I do not have proof of it and it would be impossible to prove unless the person who did it admitted fully. I am also in a quandary as to if I feel it is wrong as it is a common practice in other hobbies and does not involve direct contact with any chemical.

[JustinD]

John,

For debate and opinion several have been defending the card in this thread as there is a great value to proof over innuendo.

I do tend to side in some ways to cleaning that does not damage or change the card structurally.

I also felt for you being saddled unknowingly with an albatross in this card as I believe you did not know the issues involved at purchase and was genuinely pleased you were able to move on. I am sorry you became the poster boy for this and I understand you are feeling personally attacked.

...but your replies are making it difficult.

[aloondilana]

Thanks Justin.
You are correct, this thread has frustrated me. I'm not attacking everyone, just about 4 people.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by aloondilana

Thanks Justin.
You are correct, this thread has frustrated me. I'm not attacking everyone, just about 4 people.

Thank you for editing the previous comment.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by aloondilana

Thanks Justin.
You are correct, this thread has frustrated me. I'm not attacking everyone, just about 4 people.

The vintage card collectors of this board share potential examples of fraud to discuss which helps keep each other aware and knowledgeable of what might be going on.

You come along and demand we turn the other cheek so that you can make a bigger profit. You are attacking more than just the 4 people in this thread who spoke out & frustrated you.

[PhillipAbbott79]

I think most people would be upset if they thought they bought a Ferrari, and found out it really is a Pontiac Fiero kit car with a Ferrari body.

I personally don't have the money to find out. Even if I loved the card, finding out it was messed with would change my opinion of it immediately and I would never look at it the same way again.

It would take the joy right out of having it, caused by knowing I could have paid a fraction of the price and done the same thing to have the same card would make me feel(and likely everyone else) that they got ripped off(which is what it would be).

[sterlingfox]

Is it just me, or does the PSA 7 look like the reverse text is bleeding a bit? I find the reverse text on the SGC 4 to be significantly sharper.

Could just be a slightly out of focus scan... or just me

As a side note, this thread reaffirms my desire to stay in the low end of the hobby. Restoration/Soaking/Doctoring and tampered with slabs are far less likely to happen to sub $200 cards... I'll take and enjoy a lightly trimmed or altered "Authentic" grade card any day of the week over the same card with a numeric grade that costs 10x - 100x as much. Where there's big $$ involved, there's greed and fraud. Always has been and always will be.

[Touch'EmAll]

I also appreciate the shared knowledge that comes with following this board. Thank you everyone.

...Even if I loved the card, finding out it was messed with would change my opinion of it immediately...

If it were a $100. card or a $50,000. card, I would take advantage of the return policy so fast it make your head spin. Certified, Delivery signature, insured, personal plane ride to return, whatever it takes - card is going back. Done. Then Brent can return it to the doctor or whatever.

[botn]

Originally Posted by sterlingfox

Is it just me, or does the PSA 7 look like the reverse text is bleeding a bit? I find the reverse text on the SGC 4 to be significantly sharper.

Could just be a slightly out of focus scan... or just me

I had not looked that closely but you might be right however all the resident board experts know without a doubt that only distilled water was used to turn the Joe D into a 7 and distilled water would not cause the text to bleed.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I don't rely on grading or buy flips over cards and I see your point in this discussion completely.

I think it only matters in this circumstance due to PWCC's return policy:
"We at PWCC are not professional graders so we trust in the reputation and opinion of 3rd party professional graders. Professional grading is subjective and different 3rd party graders will often disagree over the grading on a single card. Such a disagreement is NOT a justifiable reason for a return with PWCC."

it also matters because if the card shows no signs of chemical cleaning and we are only going on assumption of wrongdoing it does not meet a burden of proof in my mind to start a coup. If you have insider knowledge of what took place could you reveal without sources the method you were told cleaned this card or if you were just told it was cleaned in an untoward way?

If proof exists that is concrete and physical that other than natural items were used, than I think it would weigh my opinion heavily.

I have an opinion of how this was done in my mind also, but I do not have proof of it and it would be impossible to prove unless the person who did it admitted fully. I am also in a quandary as to if I feel it is wrong as it is a common practice in other hobbies and does not involve direct contact with any chemical.

"We at PWCC are not professional graders..." yet they have no problem lending their opinion to a card- hence their HE ( high end) designation.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

"We at PWCC are not professional graders..." yet they have no problem lending their opinion to a card- hence their HE ( high end) designation.

I am not defending it Dave, just quoting the language used. I agree with your statement and am not a fan of the silly HE designation.

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I don't rely on grading or buy flips over cards and I see your point in this discussion completely.

I think it only matters in this circumstance due to PWCC's return policy:
"We at PWCC are not professional graders so we trust in the reputation and opinion of 3rd party professional graders. Professional grading is subjective and different 3rd party graders will often disagree over the grading on a single card. Such a disagreement is NOT a justifiable reason for a return with PWCC."

it also matters because if the card shows no signs of chemical cleaning and we are only going on assumption of wrongdoing it does not meet a burden of proof in my mind to start a coup. If you have insider knowledge of what took place could you reveal without sources the method you were told cleaned this card or if you were just told it was cleaned in an untoward way?

If proof exists that is concrete and physical that other than natural items were used, than I think it would weigh my opinion heavily.

I have an opinion of how this was done in my mind also, but I do not have proof of it and it would be impossible to prove unless the person who did it admitted fully. I am also in a quandary as to if I feel it is wrong as it is a common practice in other hobbies and does not involve direct contact with any chemical.

Good points. On a side note, unfortunately return polices don't mean to much on ebay these days. Sadly, the buyer will always "win" if the seller accepts returns. Good old ebay. :/

Lastly, I would feel sick if I had bought this card knowing the history. We're all different but, I would be upset.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by nrm1977

Good points. On a side note, unfortunately return polices don't mean to much on ebay these days. Sadly, the buyer will always "win" if the seller accepts returns. Good old ebay. :/

Lastly, I would feel sick if I had bought this card knowing the history. We're all different but, I would be upset.

Well if you are buying a card for 20k+ I would expect the buyer to do some research..its not like that past sale when the card was an SGC was 10 years ago. Its Buyer beware.