T210 Orange Border Discussion

[Harford20]

Jason, I have a few of the T210-3 San Antonio Bronchos, both red and orange border (as I live in San Antonio currently), so I have not seen the Jones cards.

My first question would be has a red-border Jones with the "A" ever been seen? Meaning could there have been a defect in the initial plate (missing the "A") and then be cleaned/re-set to have the "A" present? This theory would still support the orange border done at the end of the print runs.

Just a thought,
Dave

[Piratedogcardshows]

Originally Posted by Harford20

Jason, I have a few of the T210-3 San Antonio Bronchos, both red and orange border (as I live in San Antonio currently), so I have not seen the Jones cards.

My first question would be has a red-border Jones with the "A" ever been seen? Meaning could there have been a defect in the initial plate (missing the "A") and then be cleaned/re-set to have the "A" present? This theory would still support the orange border done at the end of the print runs.

Just a thought,
Dave

I have seen a Red Jones with just a fleck of an A but never a full A.

[Jobu]

That is a red card? It looks more like the orange cards to me.

Originally Posted by Jason

I have seen a Red Jones with just a fleck of an A but never a full A.

[Piratedogcardshows]

Originally Posted by Jobu

That is a red card? It looks more like the orange cards to me.

I thought the same thing when I first saw it but thought my eyes were playing with me. I just checked the auction description an it had it listed as an OB. Good catch

[Jobu]

It works with your theory - the SGC card has more of the A than the BVG card, which makes it look like it was wearing away as they printed the cards. That would mean that the cards with the red borders where the A is completely missing would have been printed last.

Fun post, thanks for sharing.

[steve B]

My only orange border is Nagel, and I don't have Jones at all. So no comparisons there.

I think the idea that it was incorrectly mixed ink is the most likely. Even into the 1980's the ink was often mixed by hand from a guide. Pint of color, so much of other colors added to make the exact color wanted.

And as Patrick pointed out underinking usually just looks like a fade. I don't recall seeing any T210s with a border that would make me think they were two colors- red over yellow. (Making the yellow borders their own mystery)

It's most likely they were printed at American Lithographic alongside the T206s, and it's also probable the sheets were a good deal larger than 20 or 40 cards. The orange borders are a very solid indicator of there being 20 subjects, just not how many of each were on a sheet. I'd think that number was somewhere around 160 based on other similar cards. (And that could be way off in either direction)

The probable way the plates were laid out would have been printing a bunch of transfers from a master then laying out the plate using those transfers. It's a bit too small, but the missing A could be on one place on the sheet, or it could be from a defective master. With the A only being on orange borders I'd lean towards a defective master. Which also makes a decent argument for the orange borders being made first.

Steve B

[itslarry]

I REALLY enjoyed seeing those orange boarders. The way they pop against the black and white is amazing to me. Thanks is a ton for sharing the pictures and the write up.

[Piratedogcardshows]

Originally Posted by steve B

My only orange border is Nagel, and I don't have Jones at all. So no comparisons there.

I think the idea that it was incorrectly mixed ink is the most likely. Even into the 1980's the ink was often mixed by hand from a guide. Pint of color, so much of other colors added to make the exact color wanted.

And as Patrick pointed out underinking usually just looks like a fade. I don't recall seeing any T210s with a border that would make me think they were two colors- red over yellow. (Making the yellow borders their own mystery)

It's most likely they were printed at American Lithographic alongside the T206s, and it's also probable the sheets were a good deal larger than 20 or 40 cards. The orange borders are a very solid indicator of there being 20 subjects, just not how many of each were on a sheet. I'd think that number was somewhere around 160 based on other similar cards. (And that could be way off in either direction)

The probable way the plates were laid out would have been printing a bunch of transfers from a master then laying out the plate using those transfers. It's a bit too small, but the missing A could be on one place on the sheet, or it could be from a defective master. With the A only being on orange borders I'd lean towards a defective master. Which also makes a decent argument for the orange borders being made first.

Steve B

Steve, thank you for sharing some information on the possible printing process. I agree the sheets probably were larger than my 20-40 estimate. 20 subjects per seems pretty accurate since the OB count is 20 as well.

Patrick, whether as test sheets or the first sheets printed in the actual run I would think if the OB's did in fact come first they would be considered as scraps sheets either way.

I will also share another clue in the process that supports my original theory of the creation timeline. This partial yellow Border Jones with the A. Though it is not as complete as the OB examples and might have been deteriorating through the print run