Update on PWCC Bid Monitoring Program

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jfkheat

PWCC could announce that they are giving away all cards that they have listed and some people here would still bitch about the way PWCC went about doing so.
James

And conversely they could commit blatant fraud and some people here would be making excuses for them and praising them.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And conversely they could commit blatant fraud and some people here would be making excuses for them and praising them.

..as well as continuing to buy and consign to them

[Bored5000]

Michael Jordan cards are usually a good place to find some shady bidders. I didn't even look through half the 473 Michael Jordan auctions that PWCC is running currently, and the number of auctions in which the high bidder and/or underbidder has double digit retractions is just overwhelming.

The following auctions are just a sample of the bidding going on with Michael Jordan cards, and this is why posters are at least skeptical of how serious the attempt is to stamp out the problem. It's not like there are one or two auctions (or 20) out of thousands is which a questionable bidder is flying under the radar.

Edd*e Sm*th




Here is a Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 15 retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 50,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142348167708...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is another Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 26 bid retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 40,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352029920968...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is a Jordan auction in which the top three bidders have 7,8 and 21 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...4AAOSw~CFY8Sk4

Jordan auction for a 1986 Fleer sticker in which the high bidder has 14 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-S...MAAOSwj25Y8COL

Another Jordan auction in which the bidder with 26 retractions from above is also winning:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-B...4AAOSww3tY7~6i

Another Jordan Star auction in which the underbidder and second underbidder have 15 and 14 retractions, respectively:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

A 1998 Jordan Flair Showcase card in which the high bidder has 11 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Flair-S...wAAOSwGy5Y8SiC

Jordan Star card auction in which the underbidder is the previously mentioned account with 15 retraction in the past six months:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the high bidder is the previously listed account with 26 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the account with 26 retractions is the high bidder. Not to be outdone, the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Jordan auction in which the top two bidders have eight and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...EAAOSwj25Y8SlP

Jordan card on which the underbidder has 14 retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-UD-Lege...QAAOSwB-1Y8Sm9

Another Jordan auction being won by the bidder with 26 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Jordan card in which the earlier mentioned accounts with 14 and 15 retractions are the current top two bidders:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Star-Ga...QAAOSwGy5Y8B-A

Jordan card being won by the account with 15 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction being won by our old friend with 26 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-S...kAAOSw3utY8SVB

Mr. 26 retractions is the underbidder on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-Topps-C...8AAOSwCWFY8Sc2

The account with 15 retractions is again winning this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-86-Star...i:401307987090

Our man with 26 retractions is on top again in this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-B...cAAOSwc49Y8CIe

The 26-retraction account again leads the way on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-S...8AAOSwTM5Y8SVZ

Jordan auction in which the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2008-Exquisi...UAAOSw~CFY8SvG

Another Jordan Star card in which the account with 26 retractions is on top:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ...cAAOSwnF9Y7~6N

Yet again, the 26 retractions account is the high bidder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ...AAAOSw03lY7~9H

This Jordan auction has an underbidder with 21 bid retraction in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...oAAOSwmgJY8SlQ

Jordan card in which the top two bidders have 13 and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...i:401308459405

[Stonepony]

IMG_5903.jpg

There's a problem

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Eddie, I copied your post to and sent it to Brent. While relying on the public for reporting seems like a bit of a cop out, if someone goes through all the work you did we might as well pass it along. If you want, keep us posted if those auctions see a bunch of bidders kicked out.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Eddie: Thanks for bringing up the issue with Jordan sales, that is surely 'worthy of our attention'.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months."

Uh...ok. Eddie, you must be mistaken.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Eddie: Thanks for bringing up the issue with Jordan sales, that is surely 'worthy of our attention'.

No Problem. Like I wrote, I had some free time. But I was shocked by the degree that Jordan auctions were infested with serial retractors. I didn't look at any other player, but many of Jordan's cards have made a gigantic move upward in the past 12-18 months. There is wide speculation that many of his popular cards have been shilled to extreme measures recently.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Eddie, I copied your post to and sent it to Brent. While relying on the public for reporting seems like a bit of a cop out, if someone goes through all the work you did we might as well pass it along. If you want, keep us posted if those auctions see a bunch of bidders kicked out.

Thanks. I had some free time last night. LOL.

I actually would like to pick up a couple of Jordan Star cards at some point (the Star No. 101 is out of my budget), but Jordan in particular seems to be a favorite subject of rampant bid retractors. I didn't even go through nearly all of the 473 Michael Jordan auctions PWCC is running right now, but the amount of shady bidders even shocked me when I started looking at auction after auction. That was why I kept looking at one auction after another.

[Leon]

Nice list here. Certainly a ton of fraud going on,
still....

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Michael Jordan cards are usually a good place to find some shady bidders. I didn't even look through half the 473 Michael Jordan auctions that PWCC is running currently, and the number of auctions in which the high bidder and/or underbidder has double digit retractions is just overwhelming.

The following auctions are just a sample of the bidding going on with Michael Jordan cards, and this is why posters are at least skeptical of how serious the attempt is to stamp out the problem. It's not like there are one or two auctions (or 20) out of thousands is which a questionable bidder is flying under the radar.

Edd*e Sm*th




Here is a Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 15 retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 50,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142348167708...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is another Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 26 bid retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 40,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352029920968...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is a Jordan auction in which the top three bidders have 7,8 and 21 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...4AAOSw~CFY8Sk4

Jordan auction for a 1986 Fleer sticker in which the high bidder has 14 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-S...MAAOSwj25Y8COL

Another Jordan auction in which the bidder with 26 retractions from above is also winning:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-B...4AAOSww3tY7~6i

Another Jordan Star auction in which the underbidder and second underbidder have 15 and 14 retractions, respectively:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

A 1998 Jordan Flair Showcase card in which the high bidder has 11 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Flair-S...wAAOSwGy5Y8SiC

Jordan Star card auction in which the underbidder is the previously mentioned account with 15 retraction in the past six months:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the high bidder is the previously listed account with 26 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the account with 26 retractions is the high bidder. Not to be outdone, the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Jordan auction in which the top two bidders have eight and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...EAAOSwj25Y8SlP

Jordan card on which the underbidder has 14 retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-UD-Lege...QAAOSwB-1Y8Sm9

Another Jordan auction being won by the bidder with 26 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Jordan card in which the earlier mentioned accounts with 14 and 15 retractions are the current top two bidders:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Star-Ga...QAAOSwGy5Y8B-A

Jordan card being won by the account with 15 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction being won by our old friend with 26 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-S...kAAOSw3utY8SVB

Mr. 26 retractions is the underbidder on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-Topps-C...8AAOSwCWFY8Sc2

The account with 15 retractions is again winning this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-86-Star...i:401307987090

Our man with 26 retractions is on top again in this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-B...cAAOSwc49Y8CIe

The 26-retraction account again leads the way on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-S...8AAOSwTM5Y8SVZ

Jordan auction in which the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2008-Exquisi...UAAOSw~CFY8SvG

Another Jordan Star card in which the account with 26 retractions is on top:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ...cAAOSwnF9Y7~6N

Yet again, the 26 retractions account is the high bidder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ...AAAOSw03lY7~9H

This Jordan auction has an underbidder with 21 bid retraction in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...oAAOSwmgJY8SlQ

Jordan card in which the top two bidders have 13 and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...i:401308459405

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nice list here. Certainly a ton of fraud going on,
still....

Yet their banner ad sits high and proud at the top of this page.

[Leon]

They are an advertiser. If you don't like it, leave.
I should add that, imo, the consignors who retract a lot of bids are committing the fraud. I hope PWCC will continue to put pressure on the retractors and reduce the number significantly in the near future. Ebay could do more too.....

Originally Posted by conor912

Yet their banner ad sits high and proud at the top of this page.

[Snapolit1]

Bid what a card is worth to you and not above that and you will never be defrauded.

There is fraud and fraudulent collusion and doctoring of cards in the hobby.

“I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here!”

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Bid what a card is worth to you and not above that and you will never be defrauded.

There is fraud and fraudulent collusion and doctoring of cards in the hobby.

“I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here!”

Two potential problems with your first thought, one, what a card is worth to you could well have been influenced by price inflation due to fraud, and two, even though you win a card for what it is worth to you, if the card was shill bid you might still pay more than you would have absent fraud.

Completely agree with your second thought.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Bid what a card is worth to you and not above that and you will never be defrauded.

There is fraud and fraudulent collusion and doctoring of cards in the hobby.

“I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here!”

++ There is also soaking, shilling, frosting, cracking, reprinting, counterfeiting, card doctoring, bid peddling, etc. It's what makes our hobby unique. Do your research; understand how your money is spent. if you choose to put your head up your ass and blame others for how you got f'd, then no amount of threads on this forum is going to help you.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Bid what a card is worth to you and not above that and you will never be defrauded.

I list a card on EBAY for 99 cents.

You see it, think it's value is $1,000 and place a snipe for $750.

Heading into the final minute of the auction I see the card has no bids and use a different account to place a bid of $500 within the final seconds.

The auction ends with two bids -- mine and yours. You win the card for $505, more than $200 less than what you were willing to pay!!!!! Had I not shilled it, you would have paid .99.

Using your logic, you didn't get shilled or cheated because you paid less than what you were willing to.

I know this example is unrealistic and very simple. I did it that way so its easy to understand. But the number of bids, the amount of bids and the timing the bids are placed makes no difference. A buyers state of mind or what he's "willing" to pay add nothing to the definition of shilling or being cheated.

[Brent Huigens]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Michael Jordan cards are usually a good place to find some shady bidders. I didn't even look through half the 473 Michael Jordan auctions that PWCC is running currently, and the number of auctions in which the high bidder and/or underbidder has double digit retractions is just overwhelming.

The following auctions are just a sample of the bidding going on with Michael Jordan cards, and this is why posters are at least skeptical of how serious the attempt is to stamp out the problem. It's not like there are one or two auctions (or 20) out of thousands is which a questionable bidder is flying under the radar.

Edd*e Sm*th




Here is a Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 15 retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 50,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142348167708...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is another Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 26 bid retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 40,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352029920968...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is a Jordan auction in which the top three bidders have 7,8 and 21 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...4AAOSw~CFY8Sk4

Jordan auction for a 1986 Fleer sticker in which the high bidder has 14 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-S...MAAOSwj25Y8COL

Another Jordan auction in which the bidder with 26 retractions from above is also winning:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-B...4AAOSww3tY7~6i

Another Jordan Star auction in which the underbidder and second underbidder have 15 and 14 retractions, respectively:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

A 1998 Jordan Flair Showcase card in which the high bidder has 11 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Flair-S...wAAOSwGy5Y8SiC

Jordan Star card auction in which the underbidder is the previously mentioned account with 15 retraction in the past six months:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the high bidder is the previously listed account with 26 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the account with 26 retractions is the high bidder. Not to be outdone, the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Jordan auction in which the top two bidders have eight and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...EAAOSwj25Y8SlP

Jordan card on which the underbidder has 14 retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-UD-Lege...QAAOSwB-1Y8Sm9

Another Jordan auction being won by the bidder with 26 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Jordan card in which the earlier mentioned accounts with 14 and 15 retractions are the current top two bidders:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Star-Ga...QAAOSwGy5Y8B-A

Jordan card being won by the account with 15 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction being won by our old friend with 26 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-S...kAAOSw3utY8SVB

Mr. 26 retractions is the underbidder on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-Topps-C...8AAOSwCWFY8Sc2

The account with 15 retractions is again winning this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-86-Star...i:401307987090

Our man with 26 retractions is on top again in this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-B...cAAOSwc49Y8CIe

The 26-retraction account again leads the way on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-S...8AAOSwTM5Y8SVZ

Jordan auction in which the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2008-Exquisi...UAAOSw~CFY8SvG

Another Jordan Star card in which the account with 26 retractions is on top:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ...cAAOSwnF9Y7~6N

Yet again, the 26 retractions account is the high bidder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ...AAAOSw03lY7~9H

This Jordan auction has an underbidder with 21 bid retraction in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...oAAOSwmgJY8SlQ

Jordan card in which the top two bidders have 13 and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...i:401308459405

Thank you most sincerely for sending this to us. We placed blocks on 12 user IDs following this message (many of the problematic bidders from the multiple listings were the same user ID).

As always, until eBay allows us to filter bidders by defects like bid retraction history, assistance from the community in identifying bidders in violation of our policy is greatly appreciated.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

[irv]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

Thank you most sincerely for sending this to us. We placed blocks on 12 user IDs following this message (many of the problematic bidders from the multiple listings were the same user ID).

As always, until eBay allows us to filter bidders by defects like bid retraction history, assistance from the community in identifying bidders in violation of our policy is greatly appreciated.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

What I don't understand is, how can a regular collector get this info quite easily but it takes you, a big seller on E-Bay, to rely on feedback in order to do the right thing?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by irv

What I don't understand is, how can a regular collector get this info quite easily but it takes you, a big seller on E-Bay, to rely on feedback in order to do the right thing?

Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.

[irv]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.

Fair enough, and understood.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.

Even if it was your full time job to do so? You can get any kid off the internet for 9 bucks an hour to police this stuff. You could outsource it to India, for 3 dollars an hour if you are that hard up for cash.

It is a zero skill job. I know for a fact I could find someone for 3.00 an hour within 1 day time.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.

From my understanding from Betsys posts is they have someone to do this job. Maybe they are just really bad at it.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

Thank you most sincerely for sending this to us. We placed blocks on 12 user IDs following this message (many of the problematic bidders from the multiple listings were the same user ID).

As always, until eBay allows us to filter bidders by defects like bid retraction history, assistance from the community in identifying bidders in violation of our policy is greatly appreciated.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

Thank you.