1952 Topps Set Break by burlssports ~ Break Complete

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I didn't realize how risky this is hahaha. Thanks god I got 2 highs with my 2 spots, but I saw people with 20 slots get nada. Definitely was a thrill, but I would have been tight with 2 commons for 160 haha

[oldjudge]

A few observations by someone who does not take part in these. I think people running these should be required to disclose their margin on the set. What looks like a good deal is probably anything but. Second, if you want to give to charity do it yourself. The guy running a break, or an eBay sale...., makes it seem like altruism on their part--it's just a way to get you to spend.

[bdk1976]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

A few observations by someone who does not take part in these. I think people running these should be required to disclose their margin on the set. What looks like a good deal is probably anything but. Second, if you want to give to charity do it yourself. The guy running a break, or an eBay sale...., makes it seem like altruism on their part--it's just a way to get you to spend.

This is the first one I've been in, but I've followed a couple of others.

Just out of curiosity, why should I care what his margin is? I'm going into this with the assumption- and even hope- that he's making a profit providing this service, or I'm guessing these breaks wouldn't continue. The cards available are fully disclosed, as is the price per slot. I can use the provided info to judge whether I find value in participating or not.

As far as the charity thing goes, that's actually a turn off for me- I donate to charities (one of which is coincidentally one of the choices he had), but I prefer to keep business and charitable contributions separate. Don't get me started on the stores that constantly ask/pressure you to donate at the register. Give me a $5 break on the price and I'll decide what to do with the savings on my own.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

A few observations by someone who does not take part in these. I think people running these should be required to disclose their margin on the set. What looks like a good deal is probably anything but. Second, if you want to give to charity do it yourself. The guy running a break, or an eBay sale...., makes it seem like altruism on their part--it's just a way to get you to spend.

I still maintain that it's an illegal form of gambling for the simple, straightforward reason that money is spent with the expectation of winning something of greater value. In this case, it would be classified as a lottery. Unless the person in charge of the "set break" runs a casino with the proper licensing, is in charge of a legal state-run lottery, or operates as an NPO, there are clear federal and state laws prohibiting this type of "action."

Edited to add: Leon, if I were you, I would stop hosting advertising and promotion of these events...for legal reasons.

[Leon]

You are wrong.

Originally Posted by MW1

I still maintain that it's an illegal form of gambling for the simple, straightforward reason that money is spent with the expectation of winning something of greater value. In this case, it would be classified as a lottery. Unless the person in charge of the "set break" runs a casino with the proper licensing, is in charge of a legal state-run lottery, or operates as an NPO, there are clear federal and state laws prohibiting this type of "action."

Edited to add: Leon, if I were you, I would stop hosting advertising and promotion of these events...for legal reasons.

[oldjudge]

Michael--I agree. It's a derivative form where everyone wins "something". As for the other poster asking why should you care what tiebreaker makes--so you can decide if participating is a good deal or not. If the profit is too high, and you like the concept, it may pay you to get a group of friends together, pool your money, and do a communal break where there is no profit.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If the profit is too high, and you like the concept, it may pay you to get a group of friends together, pool your money, and do a communal break where there is no profit.

My thoughts exactly.

[Leon]

I would possibly argue There is no prize. And there being no prize, from my limited understanding, it wouldn't satisfy a tenet of gambling. There is no prize as everyone is buying a card.....yes, it goes to the next tenet of gambling of chance...but we don't get that far as there is no prize. If you guys are worried about it being gambling, don't do it. I am not a gambler either but have bought a card in a break before . And I received exactly what I bought.... a card.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Michael--I agree. It's a derivative form where everyone wins "something". As for the other poster asking why should you care what tiebreaker makes--so you can decide if participating is a good deal or not. If the profit is too high, and you like the concept, it may pay you to get a group of friends together, pool your money, and do a communal break where there is no profit.

[mighty bombjack]

Leon has got it there, as this is all about framing. If you are thinking "I'm going to try and get the Mantle," than it seems like gambling. But if you are thinking "I'm buying a random 1952 Topps card," than it is not.

It is fairly easy to correlate this to buying a pack of baseball cards (or, if you will, a pack of cigarettes in 1910 that have a card included). If you are buying it hoping for that long-shot autograph (or, say, a Mathewson in the other scenario), than you are gambling (and would be better off buying the desired card/cards on the secondary market). I know that many, or perhaps most, people buying packs and boxes these days are hoping for that huge hit, but there are still plenty of us that buy a pack of Topps knowing that we are getting ten baseball cards. Might be worth more than my initial outlay, likely worth less, but I'm happy either way because I went into the transaction looking to buy ten baseball cards.

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Leon has got it there, as this is all about framing. If you are thinking "I'm going to try and get the Mantle," than it seems like gambling. But if you are thinking "I'm buying a random 1952 Topps card," than it is not.

It is fairly easy to correlate this to buying a pack of baseball cards (or, if you will, a pack of cigarettes in 1910 that have a card included). If you are buying it hoping for that long-shot autograph (or, say, a Mathewson in the other scenario), than you are gambling (and would be better off buying the desired card/cards on the secondary market). I know that many, or perhaps most, people buying packs and boxes these days are hoping for that huge hit, but there are still plenty of us that buy a pack of Topps knowing that we are getting ten baseball cards. Might be worth more than my initial outlay, likely worth less, but I'm happy either way because I went into the transaction looking to buy ten baseball cards.

EXACTLY THIS. EVERY SINGLE TIME you buy a pack of baseball cards, it's like a Set Break... except that THIS is more explicit. When you buy a pack of cards you know the price... but there could get 2 of the same crappy cards. The set break sets the ground rules in stone, INCLUDING the EXACT cards that will be distributed. ...plus... it's freaking fun!

If you don't like to join set breaks, don't join them. If you do, have at it. I've joined a couple... got not much to speak of... but I don't have any complaints. I knew EXACTLY what the odds were AND that I WAS going to get a card. As random as a card in a sealed pack.

People complaining sound a bit too much like Grandpa Simpson and the "Old Man Yells At Cloud" headline in the paper.

[bn2cardz]

This, as advertised, is like buying a pack of cards. Except you know that there is exactly one of every card in the set in the pack break. The concept of gambling at this point comes down to individual expectations. Did you buy in with the expectation that you will get a Mantle? No you bought in knowing you would get a 1952 card and one of those could be a Mantle.

If I buy a pack of 2017 Topps I don't expect that they should tell me what their ROI is if I buy a pack. They do give me odds of hitting certain inserts, but I have to be ok with the idea I may only get base cards and at that point that is what I am paying for.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

This, as advertised, is like buying a pack of cards. Except you know that there is exactly one of every card in the set in the pack break. The concept of gambling at this point comes down to individual expectations. Did you buy in with the expectation that you will get a Mantle? No you bought in knowing you would get a 1952 card and one of those could be a Mantle.

If I buy a pack of 2017 Topps I don't expect that they should tell me what their ROI is if I buy a pack. They do give me odds of hitting certain inserts, but I have to be ok with the idea I may only get base cards and at that point that is what I am paying for.

We clearly think alike!

[oldjudge]

Leon--What's the difference between the break and a lottery where all tickets that now win nothing win a nickel? In both cases everyone is getting an asset with some value. In the case of the break it is a card, in the case of the lottery it is US currency. The lottery has a currency grand prize, the break has the Mantle. It would be interesting if a lawyer chimed in--Peter?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Leon--What's the difference between the break and a lottery where all tickets that now win nothing win a nickel? In both cases everyone is getting an asset with some value. In the case of the break it is a card, in the case of the lottery it is US currency. The lottery has a currency grand prize, the break has the Mantle. It would be interesting if a lawyer chimed in--Peter?

Do yo view any difference between packs of sports cards and the lottery? If not, than we will disagree. If so, than extrapolate that difference, and you have the answer to your query.

[frankbmd]

I don't participate in set breaks because I am exceedingly unlucky, but the discussion is of some interest.

If I am at a crowded craps table and roll the dice, somebody always wins. Admittedly sometimes it is only the house. In the long run it is always the house.

In a set break the slots are sold by the house and unless the house undervalues the slots, the house always wins again.

The profit margin in both cases is extremely relevant for the participant to consider before either rolling the dice or buying a slot.

The difference between a 2% margin and a 20% margin is ten fold. With the higher margin you will find me in the parking lot a lot sooner, either with empty pockets or a couple of commons in my pocket.

The difference between the two is a matter of semantics.

I would add that you will never see me at a craps table either.

[Leon]

If the house wins then no one won. Some set breaks lose money too.

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I don't participate in set breaks because I am exceedingly unlucky, but the discussion is of some interest.

If I am at a crowded craps table and roll the dice, somebody always wins. Admittedly sometimes it is only the house. In the long run it is always the house.

In a set break the slots are sold by the house and unless the house undervalues the slots, the house always wins again.

The profit margin in both cases is extremely relevant for the participant to consider before either rolling the dice or buying a slot.

The difference between a 2% margin and a 20% margin is ten fold. With the higher margin you will find me in the parking lot a lot sooner, either with empty pockets or a couple of commons in my pocket.

The difference between the two is a matter of semantics.

I would add that you will never see me at a craps table either.

[oldjudge]

What is an Illegal Lottery?
A lottery includes three things: (1) chance, (2) prize, (3) and consideration. To successfully run a contest or sweepstakes and not an illegal lottery, you must eliminate one of these factors. A contest, for example, eliminates chance and a sweepstakes eliminates consideration (typically an entry fee). You must be careful, however, that you are actually eliminating one of the three factors.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I don't participate in set breaks because I am exceedingly unlucky, but the discussion is of some interest.

If I am at a crowded craps table and roll the dice, somebody always wins. Admittedly sometimes it is only the house. In the long run it is always the house.

In a set break the slots are sold by the house and unless the house undervalues the slots, the house always wins again.

The profit margin in both cases is extremely relevant for the participant to consider before either rolling the dice or buying a slot.

The difference between a 2% margin and a 20% margin is ten fold. With the higher margin you will find me in the parking lot a lot sooner, either with empty pockets or a couple of commons in my pocket.

The difference between the two is a matter of semantics.

I would add that you will never see me at a craps table either.

These are very good points, and the last one is the best of the bunch. By that, I mean that there is a huge difference between saying "people who do breaks like this should have to divulge their profit margins" and "if he doesn't say what the overall set is worth, I'm not participating." No one should argue with the second statement.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE

I didn't realize how risky this is hahaha. Thanks god I got 2 highs with my 2 spots, but I saw people with 20 slots get nada. Definitely was a thrill, but I would have been tight with 2 commons for 160 haha

Did you hit the campanella?

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Did you hit the campanella?

Yes thankfully!

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE

Yes thankfully!

This just made my day lol. Nice pull!!

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

This just made my day lol. Nice pull!!

Haha thanks man. Yea I was like ok I'm pretty sure he didn't get my entrees. I kept seeing Stephen Anderson. I was like maybe that's me and he spelled it wrong? lol I was pumped when I saw it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

How many opinions does Oldjudge get to post before we learn his name???

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

How many opinions does Oldjudge get to post before we learn his name???

OldJudge is Jay Mi11er. He's been around since well before I found Net54 14 or 15 years ago. He's also one of the authors of the best baseball card books ever written. I'm sure 99.9% of the posters here know who he is.