Final game of the World Series. Johnson, Mathewson, Cy Young?

[Brian Van Horn]

If it were against the Baltimore Orioles, Steve Blass.

[packs]

Is it the 9th inning of Game 7? Mariano Rivera.

[packs]

It could be 8th inning too. Still Mo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Incorporate my prior answer.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=223981

[CMIZ5290]

Peter, I hear you. My first choice was Johnson originally until I looked at alot of numbers. Talk about a toss up!

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me Johnson is by a significant margin the best pitcher of all time. Therefore, I would take him. Hard to go wrong with any of these though, or Alexander.

[CMIZ5290]

Johnson 417-279, ERA 2.17
Mathewson 373-188, ERA 2.12

These two were about as good as it gets....

[rats60]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Johnson 417-279, ERA 2.17
Mathewson 373-188, ERA 2.12

These two were about as good as it gets....

Postseason ERA
Johnson 2.52
Mathewson 0.97

I'll take Matty.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Postseason ERA
Johnson 2.52
Mathewson 0.97

I'll take Matty.

Small sample size, plus Johnson's was at the very end of his career.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by rats60

Postseason ERA
Johnson 2.52
Mathewson 0.97

I'll take Matty.

Johnson's postseasons came in 1924 and 1925, at the tail end of his career. In his prime he was the best. His 1913 season was literally the best season any pitcher has ever had IMO. I'll take Walter for one game in his prime.

Off topic, but I would love to match him against Bumgarner in a game 7.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To me Johnson is by a significant margin the best pitcher of all time. Therefore, I would take him. Hard to go wrong with any of these though, or Alexander.

What do you base that on?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

What do you base that on?

All the statistical analysis I have read, including that of Bill James, plus all the information on Baseball Reference, plus lots of anecdotal history.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Baseball Reference.


Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Pitching - 150 (1), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink
Pitching - 420 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor
Pitching - 364 (1), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Pitching - 82 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS
Starting Pitcher (1st):
165.6 career WAR / 89.5 7yr-peak WAR / 127.5 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62):
73.9 career WAR / 50.3 7yr-peak WAR / 62.1 JAWS

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Peter, I hear you. My first choice was Johnson originally until I looked at alot of numbers. Talk about a toss up!

You seem to like Johnson. Not me.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

You seem to like Johnson. Not me.

You bet I do, you might be the only person I've ever heard in the hobby that didn't....

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

You bet I do, you might be the only person I've ever heard in the hobby that didn't....

That is something I felt was accurate. I'm not into Johnson's nearly as emphatically as that, but hey, to each their own.

[TexasLeaguer]

If the pitcher also gets to hit in this hypothetical, I'm going with Babe Ruth...with Bob Gibson getting an honorable mention.

[irishdenny]

Man,
I Love da "BiG SiX" iN THiS Arena,
Especially if they Played da Tigers!
Mr. Cobb Out RiGHT Suck'd in the WS
And He Nevar Faced Mr. Mathewson!

Howevar, Mr. Johnson Against Mr. Cobb,
Different Story All tagether...
Ole' Cobb had Mr. Johnson's Number Down Pat ~

Woulda Still Been Interesting ta See?
How Matty would of handled the Peach & All !?!?

imho Ole' Mr. Young woulda been a coin toss...

Honorable Mention Goes ta Mr. "BiG Ed" Walsh,
He was Certainly No Slouch Either!

Mr. Mathewson woulda certainly of gotten the nod from me!!!

[PiratesWS1979]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

If it were against the Baltimore Orioles, Steve Blass.

Great pick! Any love for Babe Adams or Nick Maddox in the rain?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by PiratesWS1979

Great pick! Any love for Babe Adams or Nick Maddox in the rain?

Larry,

Thank you. Good to hear from a fellow Pirates fan. Adams and Maddox I like for a seventh game.

As for Johnson, and Val Kehl, please forgive me, but the Pirates did beat Johnson in the seventh game of the 1925 World Series.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

As for Johnson, and Val Kehl, please forgive me, but the Pirates did beat Johnson in the seventh game of the 1925 World Series.

Brian, you are correct. However, I suspect you are aware that WaJo did beat the Pirates in Games 1 & 4, with Game 4 being a shutout. Most observers felt that Game 7 should have been postponed due to the sloppy condition of the field - rain did fall during the game plus there was a mist that reduced visibility. If I remember correctly, Clark Griffith was adamant that the game should be played. Yes, the Pirates beat WaJo by the score of 9 - 7, however, 4 of the Pirates runs were unearned (all of the Senators runs were earned), hence WaJo should have been the winning pitcher by the score of 7 - 5!

BTW, Brian, you should also ask for forgiveness from Hank Thomas!

[darwinbulldog]

Walter Johnson. Not close.

All of your postseason sample sizes are too small to predict postseason performance in a single game better than a career's worth of regular season performances do.

It's the only thing I ever blogged about other than sex:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-base-and-more

[rats60]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Walter Johnson. Not close.

All of your postseason sample sizes are too small to predict postseason performance in a single game better than a career's worth of regular season performances do.

It's the only thing I ever blogged about other than sex:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-base-and-more

I completely disagree with your hypothesis and conclusions. I don't think it is a matter of anyone playing better. It is some great players who play at their normal high level while others are not able to maintain their's. That results in superior performance from those "clutch" players. It is natural for people to freeze or shrink when put under pressure. Some it doesn't effect. Some can overcome it with experience or at times. Some are Clayton Kershaw. Sorry, but postseason games are different than regular season games. Regular season performance doesn't necessarily predict postseason performance, see Clayton Kershaw.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rats60

I completely disagree with your hypothesis and conclusions. I don't think it is a matter of anyone playing better. It is some great players who play at their normal high level while others are not able to maintain their's. That results in superior performance from those "clutch" players. It is natural for people to freeze or shrink when put under pressure. Some it doesn't effect. Some can overcome it with experience or at times. Some are Clayton Kershaw. Sorry, but postseason games are different than regular season games. Regular season performance doesn't necessarily predict postseason performance, see Clayton Kershaw.

I'll be happy to make a public wager with you if you honestly think Kershaw won't have a sub-3.00 postseason ERA over the years 2017-2025. Quite likely you could win the bet given how small the sample will be, but probably you won't, given that regular season performance is the better predictor of postseason performance.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I completely disagree with your hypothesis and conclusions. I don't think it is a matter of anyone playing better. It is some great players who play at their normal high level while others are not able to maintain their's. That results in superior performance from those "clutch" players. It is natural for people to freeze or shrink when put under pressure. Some it doesn't effect. Some can overcome it with experience or at times. Some are Clayton Kershaw. Sorry, but postseason games are different than regular season games. Regular season performance doesn't necessarily predict postseason performance, see Clayton Kershaw.

Kershaw has had what, 15 or so post season starts, and his stats are just dramatically different from his regular season ones. I am not sure I could defend it mathematically, but that feels like enough to say that at least so far, he does seem to have an issue with post-season pitching. 6 starts by Johnson, or 10 by Mathewson (in which he was 5-5 by the way, and yes I know the ERA) don't feel like enough to draw a meaningful comparison. I'm still handing the ball to Johnson, although I would feel pretty good about handing it to Mathewson or Young or Alexander too.

[Hankphenom]

BTW, Brian, you should also ask for forgiveness from Hank Thomas![/QUOTE]

None required, Val or Brian. Although I never mind making his case, Walter's record speaks for itself. I love this quote from Clyde Milan from "Walter Johnson: King of the Pitchers."
"Tell you about Walter? I can tell you this. If I were manager of a team that had one game to play--the one most important ball game in all the world to play--and the good Lord called down and said, 'Milan, you can choose your own pitcher for this. Jut tell us what you want and we'll make up a pitcher to fit your specifications. He can have Matty's curve, or Rusie's speed, or Griffith's shrewdness and anything else you want.' Well, if that happened, I'd say never mind the specifications. Don't make me up anything fancy. Just send me Walter Johnson when he was about twenty-six years old, and you don't have to add even one little item. He'll do for me, thank you kindly."

[Touch'EmAll]

Sidd Finch.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Sidd Finch.

You Rang?

sidd finch8.jpg sidd finch6.jpg

sidd finch5.jpg sidd finch1.jpg

sidd finch7.jpg

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

BTW, Brian, you should also ask for forgiveness from Hank Thomas!

None required, Val or Brian. Although I never mind making his case, Walter's record speaks for itself. I love this quote from Clyde Milan from "Walter Johnson: King of the Pitchers."
"Tell you about Walter? I can tell you this. If I were manager of a team that had one game to play--the one most important ball game in all the world to play--and the good Lord called down and said, 'Milan, you can choose your own pitcher for this. Jut tell us what you want and we'll make up a pitcher to fit your specifications. He can have Matty's curve, or Rusie's speed, or Griffith's shrewdness and anything else you want.' Well, if that happened, I'd say never mind the specifications. Don't make me up anything fancy. Just send me Walter Johnson when he was about twenty-six years old, and you don't have to add even one little item. He'll do for me, thank you kindly."[/QUOTE]

It may be apocryphal but I remember reading a story where a batter, after taking three strikes from Johnson, turned to the umpire and said, the third one sounded low.

And I wish I could find an analysis I read a long time ago about how many wins Johnson and Mathewson would have had had they switched teams. A bit artificial no doubt, but I think Johnson gained 50 or so wins.