Top Graders' Compensation

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

It's not an accusation or even a suggestion (from me at least). It's just an observation that the opinions of several people who make relatively modest wages can have a mulitmillion dollar impact one way or another on these products. This is not directed at any TPG, but is a general comment. Again, I'm mainly commenting on a set of circumstances, which can lead to temptation.

This in no way unique to collecting, and clearly similar applies in many other fields, including for example the public sector. I remember reading a story a few years ago in SF where a few city building inspectors would block proposed home improvements (adding a floor, a garage, a deck, etc). When those houses would eventually sell, the inspectors were in cahoots with buyers, and would then approve these improvements which increased home values. On a larger scale, the City of Bell, CA. Too many scams there to begin listing.

When money is involved crazy things can happen. No doubt. I remember a few years ago at the bank I work for a branch manager downstairs got busted stealing funds from an elderly clients line of credit and it was shocking. She ran out of the bank but was quickly caught and is sitting in jail. Apparently she had a gambling problem and was covering her losses with their money.

That said because of the nature of their business, a third party graders business model is based on objectivity and the entire thing comes crashing down if collusion exists and they know that and I feel very confident there are safe guards in place to insure this doesn't happen.

The only whiff of this I have ever read about was when the Doug Allen case busted wide open and the owner of SGC was potentially implicated. Nothing ever came of it from what I have read.


****Notice their used correctly. Haha

[Peter_Spaeth]

No, it comes crashing down only if collusion exists and someone proves it. BIG difference. And I doubt it even comes crashing down, we are all too addicted to stuff and slabs.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, it comes crashing down only if collusion exists and someone proves it. BIG difference. And I doubt it even comes crashing down, we are all too addicted to stuff and slabs.

Good point. Though I could imagine one company taking a huge hit, or even going under in light of a scandal, while the others capitalize. Though I also suspect they'd need to go to incredible measures to demonstrate the integrity of their internal processes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Good point. Though I could imagine one company taking a huge hit, or even going under in light of a scandal, while the others capitalize. Though I also suspect they'd need to go to incredible measures to demonstrate the integrity of their internal processes.

Really? PSA 8 Wagner. Who took that hit?

Doug Allen's rebacked Plank PSA 6. Who took that hit?

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Really? PSA 8 Wagner. Who took that hit?

Doug Allen's rebacked Plank PSA 6. Who took that hit?

No excuses for why that didn't have more impact, maybe because it was graded several years prior (?), who knows. I cannnot imagine if a repetitive scam were exposed, in real time, in which a handful of employees were systematically bumping grades for profit, or whatever... perhaps slabbing fake signatures.

When there are 2 or more highly motivated competitors, offering a nearly equal service, I can't imagine something like this would not have a huge negative impact on the company that gets busted.

Hopefully none of this plays out, regardless of which speculative outcome is more accurate.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

No excuses for why that didn't have more impact, maybe because it was graded several years prior (?), who knows. I cannnot imagine if a repetitive scam were exposed, in real time, in which a handful of employees were systematically bumping grades for profit, or whatever... perhaps slabbing fake signatures.

When there are 2 or more highly motivated competitors, offering a nearly equal service, I can't imagine something like this would not have a huge negative impact on the company that gets busted.

Hopefully none of this plays out, regardless of which speculative outcome is more accurate.

PSA used to hand out bumps like candy at shows. I know people who would travel to the shows to get the bumps. I know dealers who would personally take cards into the grading booth to argue their case. It was common knowledge. But as long as the grade was still within reason (and there is lots of subjectivity for tweeners), it caused no shockwaves. It doesn't work that way now, but I am sure that being human organizations, at TPGs some submitters are more equal than others.

Lots can happen short of blatant corruption. You don't need people handing graders bags of cash.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

...at TPGs some submitters are more equal than others.

Understatement of the year, at least at PSA.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PSA used to hand out bumps like candy at shows. I know people who would travel to the shows to get the bumps. I know dealers who would personally take cards into the grading booth to argue their case. It was common knowledge. But as long as the grade was still within reason (and there is lots of subjectivity for tweeners), it caused no shockwaves. It doesn't work that way now, but I am sure that being human organizations, at TPGs some submitters are more equal than others.

Lots can happen short of blatant corruption. You don't need people handing graders bags of cash.

I don't really attend many shows, nor do I know most of the dealers, but I don't disbelieve you. This is such garbage if it really happened like this.

I'm less engaged in the "what could lead to the downfall?" argument, though I do still think a smoking gun scandal, if they're caught red handed could potentially hurt them irreparably. I am still more focused on the fact a few people, making relatively little have control over millions and millions of dollars in perceived product market value.

I don't necessarily envision the secret garbage bags of cash to bump grades, as much as I do a couple employees (applicable to any TPG) devising a system to keep a card or cards marked upon submission, and through grading and slabbing. Maybe it's 2, 3, 4 guys working together, however few could actually achieve overcoming company safeguards, but they would not need to bump more than a few cards (maybe 1 per 10,000) to make some crazy cash. They would never really need to do it on famous, high visibility cards either. Think Gem Mint Art Schell.. or maybe '79 Ozzie, or a '67 Yaz.. but given the price difference on a single point at those highest (8-10) levels is nuts.

If it is ever doable within the TPG's grading SOP, a person or people making mid 5 figures, could supplement that with 5-6 figures by bumping or over grading a just handful of cards per month/quarter/year. If done well, perhaps all messages are verbal (or via secure apps), it seems it could be really tough to detect. If done really well, I doubt most collectors would even notice the cards once slabbed, because I think most agree many 8s could be 9s, many 9s could be 10... and given there will always be a few blatant mistakes (a 10 with a print mark, etc), these cards could stay relatively under the radar.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Good point. Though I could imagine one company taking a huge hit, or even going under in light of a scandal, while the others capitalize. Though I also suspect they'd need to go to incredible measures to demonstrate the integrity of their internal processes.

I too have a vested interest in graded cards and feel very comfortable with PSA. That said I am quite aware that the value of those cards would be at severe risk in the event a situation such as this became a public issue. It is possible other grading companies could grab the ball and run with it but I think it would send real shock waves through the investor part of the market and create real trouble for the industry.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think there is very little risk. Too many people with too much money invested in it to let anything blow up. When something bad happens, as they have done before, they'll just rationalize and spin it and life will go on. The most expensive card in a holder (I think it's the most expensive) is trimmed. Nobody cares. Tons of expensive cards in holders are trimmed, chemically altered, etc. Nobody cares. We want our stuff. We like it graded. That will sustain TPG through any scandal, and we can always resort to discrediting whoever is claiming a problem.

[Leon]

If I knew my card was altered, and didn't want an altered card, I don't care who gave it a grade, I probably wouldn't want it. But I don't know, now that I think a little more, if I had the Wags in an 8, I just might let him be. LMAO
Now, if I am buying an AUT card, then AUT is fine. Unfortunately all that matters anymore is that whatever it is, is in a good (whatever the case may be, pun intended) holder. It tis what it tis....

ps to the original question.....I would swag a guess at 25k 35k entry level ....with top graders in the 75k-100k and up range....total guess on my part though...

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think there is very little risk. Too many people with too much money invested in it to let anything blow up. When something bad happens, as they have done before, they'll just rationalize and spin it and life will go on. The most expensive card in a holder (I think it's the most expensive) is trimmed. Nobody cares. Tons of expensive cards in holders are trimmed, chemically altered, etc. Nobody cares. We want our stuff. We like it graded. That will sustain TPG through any scandal, and we can always resort to discrediting whoever is claiming a problem.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

When money is involved crazy things can happen. No doubt. I remember a few years ago at the bank I work for a branch manager downstairs got busted stealing funds from an elderly clients line of credit and it was shocking. She ran out of the bank but was quickly caught and is sitting in jail. Apparently she had a gambling problem and was covering her losses with their money.

That said because of the nature of their business, a third party graders business model is based on objectivity and the entire thing comes crashing down if collusion exists and they know that and I feel very confident there are safe guards in place to insure this doesn't happen.

The only whiff of this I have ever read about was when the Doug Allen case busted wide open and the owner of SGC was potentially implicated. Nothing ever came of it from what I have read.


****Notice their used correctly. Haha

Totally agree. One of my two BST incidents involved a guy who had worked at a bank, and presume knew intimately how their deposit systems worked. Nothing provable bit it was all very suspicious. If it was indeed a scam, then i'd expect it was just another example of someone who knew how things worked from the inside, and knew well how to game the system. All ended well enough for me, in that my bank's fraud services eventually (1.5-2 yrs later) reimbursed my prior loss. I presume the allaged, or whomever the scammer made out with his money, though nothing was provable.

Re- TPG, I'd very much hate for any of these scenarios to come true, as it would have a huge impact on my collection's value. Though I don't really ever submit to TPGs, I (like many here) own a lot of graded stuff. Hope that horror story never plays out.