For 52 T Gray geeks only

[Zach Wheat]

Bill,

Are you saying the mid-series "white front" gray back cards are the same as the mid-series gray back glossies? I know the mid-series glossies have been referenced several times on N54 - but no one to date (except maybe Scott and or Ted S) has much experience with these. And no one that I am aware of has ever figured out how common these are in relation to the normal mid-series gray backs. If this is the case, congrats (!) & great information.

I have perhaps 23 mid-series gray backs, but don't think I have any glossies. Unsure if they have white fronts. I am travelling currently and will have to check when I return.

Z

[Zach Wheat]

One of the first references I have found pertaining to the mid-series "white front" & gray back glossies came from SCD in their discussion with John Rumierz on refuting their Canadian origin. John was collecting '52 Topps back in the '70's & noted the difference between normal gray backs & the ones with glossy fronts.

The link follows - see item #6, half way down:

http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/topps_canadian/

Z

[flkersn]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Bill,

Are you saying the mid-series "white front" gray back cards are the same as the mid-series gray back glossies? I know the mid-series glossies have been referenced several times on N54 - but no one to date (except maybe Scott and or Ted S) has much experience with these. And no one that I am aware of has ever figured out how common these are in relation to the normal mid-series gray backs. If this is the case, congrats (!) & great information.

I have perhaps 23 mid-series gray backs, but don't think I have any glossies. Unsure if they have white fronts. I am travelling currently and will have to check when I return.

Z

They are probably the same. The glossies have a bit of a "sheen" to them. Here are my observations from cards that I have actually held in my hand:

All "glossies" are white front.
Not all white front are glossies.
No gray front is glossy.

I don't know if there are two variations of the white front or not. (Lordy, I hope not!) The non-glossy white front could be non-glossy because of wear.

Keep in mind that the cards I am talking about here are ones that I have seen 'live"--a much smaller subset than my original data base. It is impossible for me to tell glossiness in a scan.

Bill

[SMPEP]

Bill - Pretty sure the white, non-glossies are really white, glossies that have aged.

Two gray back variations, not 3!

Cheers,
Patrick

[Zach Wheat]

Al,

Here are 2...the #144 Blake is a glossy white front / gray back and #145 is the normal gray front / gray back. Differences are subtle and color differences could be an artifact of scanning. These were taken from the 1952 Topps Super Set for Harrison in the PSA Registry section. Thanks Bill for pointing this out.


Z

[ALR-bishop]

They do look different, thanks Zach

[Zach Wheat]

Bill,

According to G Vrecheck in this link:

http://www.pjdenterprises.com/baseba...pps_print.html

the 3rd series was printed such that the 1st 40 cards (#131-170) were double printed while the remaining 20 cards (#171-190) were single printed. This seems to follow with the commonly accepted mid-series scarcity for gray backs.

Did you notice the same quantity in glossies i.e did they follow this same pattern?

Z

[flkersn]

Great question! The answer appears to be "yes." The ratio of GB/WF to all GB for the first 40 cards is 11.8%. The same ratio for the last 20 cards is 11.2% (well within the accuracy of the data). So I would propose that the white front have a uniform scarcity throughout the 60 cards--about 1 in 9.

But your question took me down a couple of other rabbit holes and kept me up until the wee hours this morning.

I will compose two more responses. The first will cover my take on the distribution of cards with the subset (relative scarcity) and the second will cover relative scarcity of the GBs and GB/WFs when compared to the CBs.

ALERT--52 T GRAY GEEKS ONLY!

Bill

[flkersn]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Bill,

According to G Vrecheck in this link:

http://www.pjdenterprises.com/baseba...pps_print.html

the 3rd series was printed such that the 1st 40 cards (#131-170) were double printed while the remaining 20 cards (#171-190) were single printed. This seems to follow with the commonly accepted mid-series scarcity for gray backs.

Did you notice the same quantity in glossies i.e did they follow this same pattern?

Z

As promised, here is the second of three notes. The URL you posted posits 200 cards in a print run, with 20 cards quadruple-printed (80) and 40 cards triple printed (120). This would suggest a scarcity ratio of 4:3 or 1.33 between the more scare 40 (unidentified) and the less scare 20 (also unidentified).

Alternatively, about 18 months ago, Patrick proposed the following:

"Here is the layout:

3rd series:
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170
171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180

181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170

Patrick"

This assumes the same 200-card run, but has a different scarcity ratio. Quadruple prints of the first 40 (160) and double prints of the last 20 (40), or a ratio of 2:1.

What do the data say? If you look at the pop report from PSA for CB 3rd series, you get the following average pops:

131-140 483
141-150 489
151-160 487
161-170 492
171-180 467
181-190 390.

The average for 171-180 is probably inflated by about 1000 pop for Martin. If you back out the Martin, you get an average of 410 for those cards.

The data would seem to suggest that there is a clear break in scarcity between the first 40 and the last 20.

The conundrum is that the ratio is about 1.2 between the first forty and the last 20, and not 2.0, as Patrick's scheme would suggest.

I welcome any thoughts.

Bill