Ty Cobb Card Market?

[orly57]

Originally Posted by sterlingfox

The T206s will definitely be getting a correction. $14,400 for a PSA 3 Green portrait is ridiculous!

Ridiculous? Should he have bought a Cody Belanger 1/1 refractor with that money? Just curious, if that gorgeous green t206 isn't worth 14k to you, then what card is? If he paid that for an ugly 5, you would praise what a great deal he got. Way to buy a nice CARD Sam. I mean, that's what we collect right???

As for Cobb's resurgence, I think there are several reasons. He is an iconic figure who, along with Ruth, is the face of pre-war baseball cards. Ruth's first card was in 1916, just after the beautiful, colorful T, D, and E cards. Ruth just missed the boat on the last beautiful set of that era, the CJs. Most of Ruth's cards are small black and white caramel cards, redemption coupons, and strip cards. It wasn't until the end of his career that the iconic Goudeys came out. I am not bashing Ruth at all, but Ruth doesn't have cards as beautiful as Cobb (t206, t217, t3, e95, d304, etc). Finally, guys have been dropping big bucks on highgrade Clemente, Rose, Mays, etc, so why shouldn't Cobb's cards go up in value? There are many hall of famers, but very few guys who are larger than life mythological figures. Cobb is one of those guys.

[Bicem]

3 of those are not postcards, can you id them?

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Bicem

3 of those are not postcards, can you id them?

The 2 Azoras (schedules) and Pinkerton (different backs).

[orly57]

Greg, graders often have their reasons. And those reasons are often legitimate. But don't tell me a hidden crease should count the same as an obvious crease. It does, but it's stupid. So they can grade it the same all they want, but it doesn't make sense. And it certainly doesn't have to enslave collectors into buying cards based on other people's assessments. I will take Sam's 3 over SEVERAL 5's because my cards are meant to please my eyes, not to show off some arbitrary grade.

[botn]

Originally Posted by orly57

Greg, graders often have their reasons. And those reasons are often legitimate. But don't tell me a hidden crease should count the same as an obvious crease. It does, but it's stupid. So they can grade it the same all they want, but it doesn't make sense. And it certainly doesn't have to enslave collectors into buying cards based on other people's assessments. I will take Sam's 3 over SEVERAL 5's because my cards are meant to please my eyes, not to show off some arbitrary grade.

Huh? A crease is a crease for purposes of assessing a card's grade or the impact the existence of a crease has on the eventual grade. A little bit pregnant is still pregnant, no? To think otherwise is deluding oneself, at a minimum. The market has always been incredibly efficient in putting a value on a high grade example over a low grade example and that green Cobb is a perfect example.

I was not making an argument that the green Cobb should sell for what a lower grade example would sell for. Only trying to point out that in spite of great eye appeal, the technical flaws in a card, that we either can or cannot see in a scan (or in person) will impact the grade. Sometimes they are not immediately obvious.

[darwinbulldog]

Some pregnant women have better eye appeal than others.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by botn

Huh? A crease is a crease for purposes of assessing a card's grade or the impact the existence of a crease has on the eventual grade. A little bit pregnant is still pregnant, no? To think otherwise is deluding oneself, at a minimum. The market has always been incredibly efficient in putting a value on a high grade example over a low grade example and that green Cobb is a perfect example.

I was not making an argument that the green Cobb should sell for what a lower grade example would sell for. Only trying to point out that in spite of great eye appeal, the technical flaws in a card, that we either can or cannot see in a scan (or in person) will impact the grade. Sometimes they are not immediately obvious.

If you are of the school that "a crease is a crease" regardless of visibility or location, or that "paper loss is paper loss" regardless of size or location on a card, then I guess you are right. I also think that sort of rigid mentality lacks any nuance or thought. But I bet it's a lot more fun buying cards when you don't care about pesky things like creases on a face as long as it has the grade you desire. It is, after all, the same as a hidden crease right?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by orly57

If you are of the school that "a crease is a crease" regardless of visibility or location, or that "paper loss is paper loss" regardless of size or location on a card, then I guess you are right. I also think that sort of rigid mentality lacks any nuance or thought. But I bet it's a lot more fun buying cards when you don't care about pesky things like creases on a face as long as it has the grade you desire.

In my opinion it's a higher than usual risk proposition to pay a huge premium over the grade for eye appeal, on a card that's relatively easy to find. I guess we just disagree. In any event, Sam is happy, so it's really more a debate about philosophy than this specific card.

[botn]

Originally Posted by orly57

If you are of the school that "a crease is a crease" regardless of visibility or location, or that "paper loss is paper loss" regardless of size or location on a card, then I guess you are right. I also think that sort of rigid mentality lacks any nuance or thought. But I bet it's a lot more fun buying cards when you don't care about pesky things like creases on a face as long as it has the grade you desire. It is, after all, the same as a hidden crease right?

Wow I think ya might want to have someone read my posts to you and try to explain them to you. Both of my posts are referring to technical aspects of assessing a card's grade and the school of thought that is applied by the graders when doing so, which seems to have gone way over your head.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by orly57

Greg, graders often have their reasons. And those reasons are often legitimate. But don't tell me a hidden crease should count the same as an obvious crease. It does, but it's stupid. So they can grade it the same all they want, but it doesn't make sense. And it certainly doesn't have to enslave collectors into buying cards based on other people's assessments. I will take Sam's 3 over SEVERAL 5's because my cards are meant to please my eyes, not to show off some arbitrary grade.

Sure, if you are buying without regard to resale value. But most of us have at least one eye on resale value and grades do matter.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sure, if you are buying without regard to resale value. But most of us have at least one eye on resale value and grades do matter.

No. Other people have eyes too. I don't think Sam bid it up to 14k by himself.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sure, if you are buying without regard to resale value. But most of us have at least one eye on resale value and grades do matter.

Grades do matter, but we had this discussion years ago on a thread I started: eye appeal can and often does trump technical grade, unless the "collector" is really buying plastic slabs with a certain flip inside.

Best wishes, Pete,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by orly57

Greg, graders often have their reasons. And those reasons are often legitimate. But don't tell me a hidden crease should count the same as an obvious crease. It does, but it's stupid. So they can grade it the same all they want, but it doesn't make sense. And it certainly doesn't have to enslave collectors into buying cards based on other people's assessments. I will take Sam's 3 over SEVERAL 5's because my cards are meant to please my eyes, not to show off some arbitrary grade.

+10,000 on that too!

Best wishes,

Larry

[Bicem]

Well done, well done. Your Cobb postcard knowledge has officially surpassed JC's.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Well done, well done. Your Cobb postcard knowledge has officially surpassed JC's.

Lol, thanks. He owns all 3, so I am pretty sure he is aware. And he actually taught me.

[Sean]

Jay, is the photo that was used for a couple of those postcards also the photo that was used for the T206 Cobb bat-off-the shoulder card?

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Sean

Jay, is the photo that was used for a couple of those postcards also the photo that was used for the T206 Cobb bat-off-the shoulder card?

From the collages that JC posted, I think only the novelty cutlery and PC796 (same central images) COULD be the same image used in the t206 bat-off. It is certainly the same image used in his CJ. The hand placement on the bat is similar, but I don't know if the artist on the t206 bat-off went off this image or not. He obviously didn't do a great job since doesn't look much like Cobb as it is! They did a poor job on the bat-on as well. Looks nothing like Cobb when you compare it to the much more accurate depiction of that pose on the T3. Maybe someone on here will know.

[Directly]

Supply V/S demand

Its interesting the green background prices v/s the supply?

(PSA Pop)--all grades---Green 759--Bat/On 800----Bat/off 931--Red 1830--Total 4,320 cards (40 percent of the graded four are the red variety )


The PSA Pop between the Green v/s Bat/On is = 41 cards graded but a usually a very noticeable difference in prices in any grade--demand?


The PSA Pop report between the Bat/on v/s Red = 1,030 more Red background cards--prices don't reflect supply--demand?


Note: seems some disparity in higher prices with the red background with 899 more graded cards than the Bat/off variety.--demand?


Then add the equation for the back variations and grade scale ?-this becomes even more complicated


With Grading being all over the place within the same grade scale 3's with creases then others same 3 grade and no crease, I agree with eye appeal--I was looking at a PSA 3 Cobb on auction, contacted the seller, and was advised there was a light crease, wasn't noticeable by the posted picture, the bids just kept on going up.


The question, will T206 Cobbs see any price correction boils down to the long time business equation **Supply/Demand** come on--these Antique cards are over 100 years of age, being wonderful in any grade !!!--are graded 1950-60's over priced--let the buyers decide!


I bought a couple T206 Cobbs a few weeks ago and was advised I paid too much--I said who cares they aren't for sale, I liked them--I determined the value for me, not for them!---

[sterlingfox]

If that card is as nice in hand as the scan shows, then it's definitely worth a premium. I'm just saying that this exact same card a few years ago probably wouldn't have even hit 5k. It's the sudden and extreme inflation on the green Cobb that I'm trying to point out.

As a side note, I've never spent even 1k on a card, let alone 14k. As a collector, I value depth in a collection vs just a few standout cards, but that's just me. Most of my tobacco era stuff is VG and under, and I enjoy all of it immensely, even if it doesn't have perfect centering and color. I'd much rather have 14 different Cobb issues (that still present well) worth 1k each than this one amazing green Cobb.

Originally Posted by orly57

Ridiculous? Should he have bought a Cody Belanger 1/1 refractor with that money? Just curious, if that gorgeous green t206 isn't worth 14k to you, then what card is? If he paid that for an ugly 5, you would praise what a great deal he got. Way to buy a nice CARD Sam. I mean, that's what we collect right???

As for Cobb's resurgence, I think there are several reasons. He is an iconic figure who, along with Ruth, is the face of pre-war baseball cards. Ruth's first card was in 1916, just after the beautiful, colorful T, D, and E cards. Ruth just missed the boat on the last beautiful set of that era, the CJs. Most of Ruth's cards are small black and white caramel cards, redemption coupons, and strip cards. It wasn't until the end of his career that the iconic Goudeys came out. I am not bashing Ruth at all, but Ruth doesn't have cards as beautiful as Cobb (t206, t217, t3, e95, d304, etc). Finally, guys have been dropping big bucks on highgrade Clemente, Rose, Mays, etc, so why shouldn't Cobb's cards go up in value? There are many hall of famers, but very few guys who are larger than life mythological figures. Cobb is one of those guys.

[A2000]

Would love to see a picture of the 3 Cobb that sold yesterday in regular lighting and at an angle.

[BeanTown]

Sam, great Green Cobb and congrats on the pickup. I had that on my watch list.

Jeff, I should say Postcard size cards.

Orlando, way to answer Jeff's trivia, and wonder if most would know which ones you named.

[Rhotchkiss]

Sam, it's a beautiful card. Enjoy and who cares the price - it's yours and it's great!

[orly57]

Yup. Even if the masses cool-off on green Cobb's, there will always be a huge demand for GORGEOUS green Cobbs.

As for the green Cobb being "readily available," I can tell you that 52 mantles are readily available, and they do pretty well regardless of condition. Guys overpay big time for well centered copies of lesser grades. T205 Cobbs are "readily available," but I can't find one that meets my parameters (which has more to do with eye appeal, than grade). I've seen a bunch of mid-grade t205s that don't do it for me. A type of card can be readily available, but a special example is not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by orly57

Yup. Even if the masses cool-off on green Cobb's, there will always be a huge demand for GORGEOUS green Cobbs.

As for the green Cobb being "readily available," I can tell you that 52 mantles are readily available, and they do pretty well regardless of condition. Guys overpay big time for well centered copies of lesser grades. T205 Cobbs are "readily available," but I can't find one that meets my parameters (which has more to do with eye appeal, than grade). I've seen a bunch of mid-grade t205s that don't do it for me. A type of card can be readily available, but a special example is not.

Overpay is the key word. I would guess that people who bought during the height of the mania will have a hard time getting back what they paid for some of those lesser grades.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by orly57

Yup. Even if the masses cool-off on green Cobb's, there will always be a huge demand for GORGEOUS green Cobbs.

As for the green Cobb being "readily available," I can tell you that 52 mantles are readily available, and they do pretty well regardless of condition. Guys overpay big time for well centered copies of lesser grades. T205 Cobbs are "readily available," but I can't find one that meets my parameters (which has more to do with eye appeal, than grade). I've seen a bunch of mid-grade t205s that don't do it for me. A type of card can be readily available, but a special example is not.

+1 on the '52 Mantles, although I think "readily available" is an enormous understatement. It appears that there is an endless stream of them. And take note as to the large number appearing in the newer PSA holders--lots of ungraded specimens in old-time collections finding their way to market when the prices are just too good to be true for lower grade copies??? In the '90's, one author estimated that 15,000 examples existed--he may well have been off by a factor of 2 or three!

But may your collecting always bring you joy,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by orly57

Ridiculous? Should he have bought a Cody Belanger 1/1 refractor with that money? Just curious, if that gorgeous green t206 isn't worth 14k to you, then what card is? If he paid that for an ugly 5, you would praise what a great deal he got. Way to buy a nice CARD Sam. I mean, that's what we collect right???

As for Cobb's resurgence, I think there are several reasons. He is an iconic figure who, along with Ruth, is the face of pre-war baseball cards. Ruth's first card was in 1916, just after the beautiful, colorful T, D, and E cards. Ruth just missed the boat on the last beautiful set of that era, the CJs. Most of Ruth's cards are small black and white caramel cards, redemption coupons, and strip cards. It wasn't until the end of his career that the iconic Goudeys came out. I am not bashing Ruth at all, but Ruth doesn't have cards as beautiful as Cobb (t206, t217, t3, e95, d304, etc). Finally, guys have been dropping big bucks on highgrade Clemente, Rose, Mays, etc, so why shouldn't Cobb's cards go up in value? There are many hall of famers, but very few guys who are larger than life mythological figures. Cobb is one of those guys.

You know I'm right there with you on that, Orly. Cobb will always be one of the game's greatest icons!

Highest regards always,

Larry