T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

Hi Kin

I appreciate your kind compliments.


The answer to your question is......

OLD MILL and PIEDMONT are Factory #25.

HINDU is Factory #649.


Kin, it's a complicated set, so feel free to email me regarding any questions you have...... tedzan11@comcast.net



TED Z
.

[Beansballcardblog]

Thank you so much, Ted. I'm working on the T36 set and in it, each card has a Hassan and Mecca back, and each of those has a Factory 30 and a Factory 649 back. Wasn't sure if that might be the case on these.

-kin

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Kin

I appreciate your kind compliments.


The answer to your question is......

OLD MILL and PIEDMONT are Factory #25.

HINDU is Factory #649.


Kin, it's a complicated set, so feel free to email me regarding any questions you have...... tedzan11@comcast.net



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wvu_class_of_2001

Thank you so much, Ted. I'm working on the T36 set and in it, each card has a Hassan and Mecca back, and each of those has a Factory 30 and a Factory 649 back. Wasn't sure if that might be the case on these.

-kin

Hi Kin K.

No, it's not the case on the Southern League T206 cards.

The T36 (Auto Drivers) cards were printed and issued approx. the same time the T201 and T202 BB cards were. The MECCA and HASSAN backs on these BB cards, respectively,
have both the Factory #30 and a Factory #649 backs.

My experience in completing the T201 set (and still working on the T202 set) has been that the Factory #649 backs are more plentiful than the Factory #30 backs.

Is this difference also true for your T36 cards ?


TED Z
.

[Beansballcardblog]

Ted,

The sample size of cards that I've been able to verify and analyze is very small. Sometimes I can't see the back scans to verify that aspect. In the Huggins & Scott auction that ended this week, there was a complete set but only the fronts were pictured.

What I've found so far is Mecca 30 backs being the most plentiful. The other three brand/factory combinations have similar numbers.

I'm not confident this will hold up, as I've been looking into this for less than two years.

Thanks again for your great, informative thread!

-kin

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Kin K.

No, it's not the case on the Southern League T206 cards.

The T36 (Auto Drivers) cards were printed and issued approx. the same time the T201 and T202 BB cards were. The MECCA and HASSAN backs on these BB cards, respectively,
have both the Factory #30 and a Factory #649 backs.

My experience in completing the T201 set (and still working on the T202 set) has been that the Factory #649 backs are more plentiful than the Factory #30 backs.

Is this difference also true for your T36 cards ?


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





One of the early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?

This thread inspired lot's of brainstorming between Net54ers regarding various aspects of T206 cards. Surveys and new theory's were explored, resulting in 363 posts
which you'll find very interesting and informative.

The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Martínez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba
to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars.

Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx.




.... . . . . . .



To date, there are 284 confirmed T206 cards with the EPDG back.....they are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series.

150/350 Series................83 subjects

.

Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro
Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
JJ Clarke
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)

Criger
Dahlen (Boston)
Harry Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Donlin (seated)
Donovan (portrait)
Dooin
Doolin
Durham
Evers (portrait)
Ewing
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Griffith (portrait)
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)

Tom Jones (St Louis)
Jordan (portrait)
Karger
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Killian (pitching)
Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (throwing)
Leach (portrait)
Lindaman
Lobert
Lumley
Lundgren (Cubs)
Magee (portrait)
Marquard (hands at side)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Mullin (throwing)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)

Owen
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schaefer (Detroit)
Schlei (catching)
Seymour (bat)
Shaw (St Louis)
Shipke
Spade
Spencer
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stovall (portrait)
L Tannehill (Washington)
Tinker (portrait)
Turner
Wagner (bat on left)
Walsh
Weimer

Wilhelm (arms at chest)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)

350-only Series................102 subjects

.

Abbott
Anderson
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Casey
Collins (A's)

Collins (Minneapolis)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Easterly
Egan
Evans
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Gasper

Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Groom
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Hoffman (Providence)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (catching-NY)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lattimore

Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox
Mattern
McAleese
McCormick
McLean
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin
Pfeister (seated)
Phillippe
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen

Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Rudolph
Schlafly
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Smith (Buffalo)
F. Smith (Chicago)
Stanage
Stephens
Sweeney (Boston)
Jesse Tannehill
Taylor
Thomas
Titus
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson

Wright
Zimmerman

Six Super-Prints

.

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)

350/460 series................56 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
George Davis (Chicago)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)



.


460-only Series................37 subjects (COMPLETE)

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand on waist)
Hummel

Lake, St. Louis (ball)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat


This survey is a work in progress....any new EPDG inputs from you guys are greatly appreciated.

Thanx


TED Z
.

[Thromdog]

Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.

1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.

Back to the players themselves.

Of the 284 subjects from your list, all but 3 have graded examples in the SGC and PSA pop charts. They are Hunky Shaw, Jim Pastorius, and Ed Willett. For the rest of the subjects, they have a minimum of 3 graded examples. My first instinct is to say they don't exist, but I've been proven wrong in the past. I would love to see an example of these guys, so if anyone has one, lets see them!

I'd also point out the uniqueness of the Elite 11 with EPDG backs which is a fun subject. After having collected EPDGs for the last few years, I would say they are not any tougher to find than a regular EPDG, with a few exceptions. As an example, I've owned 4 different Tom Jones EPDG cards.

Knowing the difficulty finding these subjects with Piedmont 350 backs, I support a theory that the EPDGs were printed before the Piedmont 350's. Pat R, who is awesome, had a great thread about this using print defects in comparing 150/350 subjects.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=231030

I haven't updated my collage in a while, but I'm sitting at 223 unique EPDG's at this point. Here's my first 214.

[tedzan]

Hi Jeff

1st....the grand total of 285 confirmed EPDG subjects is correct......

Cards ..... Series

..83 ........ 150/350
102 ........ 350-only
...6 ......... Super-Prints
..57 ........ 350/460 [if Kleinow (Boston) exists with EPDG)]
..37 ........ 460-only

2nd....I left out Howell in the 460-only series list. Just a hasty typing mistake. This has been corrected.

3rd....There is a question regarding Kleinow (Boston). I have heard this combo exists; however, others say it is a No-Print. What say you ?

4th....I really like your array of EPDG cards, thanks for posting it.

Pastorius, Shaw, and Willett are on my confirmed list (and also on t206 resource's list).

My experience with collecting the Elite 11 regarding both their PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs varies all over the place.

But, Lundgren (Cubs) is definitely a "toughie" with PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs.

Thanks again.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Thromdog

Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.

1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.

Hey Jeff

1....My 460-only list is correct with 37 subjects. I inadvertently omitted Howell. He is included in this list.

2....Steinfeldt (portrait) in the 350/460 series list was a typo error, which I have removed. It should have been Steinfeldt (bat). This has been corrected.

Therefore, 57 subjects are correct if you accept Kleinow (Boston) as valid. I have some doubts that this subject exists with an EPDG back.

So, I am asking you again....if you know that this front/back combo exists ? ?


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *


We have been on vacation visiting our Daughter and Grandson in Maine. I just noticed Turner's thread.... Georgia Find: 878 T205's and T206's.
Thanks, Turner for posting this thread and all those great images.

This is a significant find. It's the 4th discovery in the surrounding area of Atlanta of an original collection of T206's that include the rare T206's that we refer to as the Elite 11 cards.

Approx. 9 years ago, I acquired a lot of T206's from an Antique dealer in Atlanta. All these cards were from an original collection in a town nearby Atlanta. This collection was strictly
PIEDMONT cards; and, I was pleasantly surprised to find 8 of the Elite 11 cards in this group.

Very recently, another original collection of T206's (all PIEDMONT's) was discovered in the Atlanta area. And, this collection included 7 of the Elite 11 cards.

I have been tracking these rare T206's since 2006, refer to this thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180 for more info.

It appears that Factory #25 shipped PIEDMONT cigarette packs (containing 1st print run PIEDMONT 350 cards) to Georgia. I say this because some Joe Doyle Nat'l cards have been
found in T206 collections originating in Georgia. The best example being Senator Richard Russell's original T206 collection. It is the first known source of the Elite 11 cards. This set
also includes the Joe Doyle Nat'l card. Russell lived in Winder, Georgia (not far from Atlanta), and he collected Tobacco cards as a teenager during 1909 - 1910.


Elite 11....plus Lundgren





Although Lundgren (Cubs) was not printed with HINDU, SOVEREIGN, nor SWEET CAPORAL....this card is very similar to the ELITE 11
with respect to the initial 350 press runs of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs. Therefore, I have included Lundgren in with this group.

Note The Schulte card has not yet been found with an EPDG back.


Hey guys,
I'm open to hearing of any other regions in the country where these Elite 11 cards have been discovered. Please chime in with your information.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]


* * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * *


OK, let's take a break for now from all this "heavy" stuff regarding T206's, and have a Show-n-Tell of your favorite T206 cards in your collection.
Card's condition is immaterial, what can be more interesting is the story behind why certain T206's are your favorites.

I'll start this show with 3 of my sentimental favorites......


Here is my first T206....I acquired this Chase at the Willow Grove Show in Pennsylvania (Spring 1981).






The red Cobb with a SOVEREIGN 460 back is a very tough card to find. It was the last card in completing my SOVEREIGN-Only set of 408 cards.

.




Mr. Plank was the last card I needed to complete my SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30-Only set. It's now "complete" with 468 cards (no Wagner).

.



Hey guys,
Looking forward to seeing your favorite T206's.


TED Z
.

[greco827]

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *




The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Martínez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba
to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars.

Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx.


TED Z
.

Ted,

I did a bit of research, and am fairly confident that Factory 17 was in Richmond, VA, on "Tobacco Row". In an article written Sep 12, 1908, in Tobacco Leaf, Volume 45, Page 32, it mentions this:

"The Federal Cigar Co's plant, which recently closed down several weeks ago, has resumed work. This plant was formerly known as the Whitlock branch of the American Cigar Co. Here Beaux Arts, a little cigar, are made as well as El Principe cigarettes and other brands."

El Principe De Gales is also mentioned by name in full, a bit earlier in the article.

I have not yet found anything which specifically says that the P. Whitlock Branch of ATC is Factory 17, just that the branch was in Richmond and produced EDPG.

[greco827]

Ted,

Update on the previous .... I did find, on cigarhistory.com, mentions of The P. Whitlock Branch and it being Factory 17. It mentions that OVC, another tobacco brand, all carried a Fact. 17, 2nd Dist. VA" designation until 1920, when it then changed to read "Fact. 17, VA."

[sreader3]

Hi Kin,

Thanks for the nice words.

As Ted says there are just the three brand/factory combos for southern leaguers.

There is a footnote, however. A handful of southern leaguer cards having the Old Mill Southern back were printed in brown ink. These cards are all hand-cut i.e. scrap. Moreover, a couple of these Brown Old Mill Southerns (Greminger comes to mind) weirdly have a red Factory 649 overstrike stamp on them. If you search the Net54 archives you will find an image of the "freak" Greminger Brown Old Mill Southern Factory 649 Overstrike card somewhere.

Scot

Here's a link:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=147870

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects


In a conversation with David Hall at the National talking T206's, one topic was regarding the recent find of the 350/460 cards with SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory #30 backs.
These cards were never issued in cigarette packs at Factory #30 (NYC). Instead, American Lithographic overprinted them with the Factory #42 stamp and shipped them to
Factory #42 (Durham, NC).





It's my understanding that these cards in David's set were originally on a sheet. Unfortunately, the owner of this sheet hand-cut them. Anyhow, I was curious and asked
David to email me a list of them. And, here is David's list......

28 Hand-Cut (Not Issued) Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 cards

Berger, Heinie
Bradley, Bill (With Bat)
Burch, Al (Fielding)
Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder)
Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing)
Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
Jordan, Tim (Batting)
Lajoie, Nap (With Bat)
Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
Leach, Tommy (Bending Over)
Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
Manning, Rube (Pitching)
McQuillan, George (With Bat)
Mullin, George (With Bat)
Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical)
Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder)
Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
White, Doc (Pitching)

Very, very interesting, in that this sheet comprising of these 28 cards coincides exactly with my theory regarding the 28 subjects which I refer to as "Group B" (350/460 series).


Group B (350/460 series)




TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards.

Patrick

[tedzan]

Hi Pat

You may be right.

But, Lajoie is on the list David sent me.

So, I'll call him about this.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Hey Ted, sorry to go off-topic, but I have a timeline question about T214s and T213s. I noticed that the Bresnahan appears as a T213 Type-2 with the Chicago Cubs. He appears as well with the Toledo team, presumably in a later print run of Type-2 Coupons. I've always read that these were printed in 1914. But the T214 Bresnahan, printed in 1915 still lists him with Chicago. Then in 1919 the Coupon Type-3s also show Bresnahan with Toledo.

Does this mean that there was a second print run of Type-2s that was later than the 1915 printing of T214s? You've probably addressed this somewhere before, but I can't find it. Here are the cards that I mentioned:


scan0009.jpg

scan0010.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Hey Ted, sorry to go off-topic, but I have a timeline question about T214s and T213s. I noticed that the Bresnahan appears as a T213 Type-2 with the Chicago Cubs. He appears as well with the Toledo team, presumably in a later print run of Type-2 Coupons. I've always read that these were printed in 1914. But the T214 Bresnahan, printed in 1915 still lists him with Chicago. Then in 1919 the Coupon Type-3s also show Bresnahan with Toledo.

Does this mean that there was a second print run of Type-2s that was later than the 1915 printing of T214s? You've probably addressed this somewhere before, but I can't find it. Here are the cards that I mentioned:


Attachment 282499

Attachment 282500

Hi Sean

Here's my understanding of the timeline regarding Bresnahan.

In early 1916, Bresnahan purchased the Toledo Mud Hens (American Association). He played for Toledo until 1918.

Therefore, I am not surprised that he is identified with Toledo on a T213-2 card (they were printed 1914 - 1916).
And, of course captioned with Toledo on a T213-3 card (which were printed as late as 1919).

Does this answer help ?


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards.


Patrick

Pat

David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie).

Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie).

Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source.


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

PSA has a special section in their pop reports for no prints that include the SC350-460/30's. I sent David an email several months ago about three that were missing from the list
which are Conroy (With Bat), Lake (No Ball) and Leach (Bending Over) but I never heard back from him. The next time you speak to him can you ask him to have them update this
list for accuracy to include these three and the Lajoie that he has.

https://www.psacard.com/pop/t206/?by...f=0#NoPrintPop


img340 - Copy.jpg
Conroy (bat) Group.jpgConroy (bat) Back Group.jpg
Lake (no ball) Group_.jpgLake (no ball) Back Group_.jpg
Leach [1].jpgLeach Back [1].jpg

[Ronnie73]

Here is a front/back scan of the Lajoie Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print". I personally own this card along with the other 27 "No Print" cards. This 28 card "No Print" set follows Ted's "Group B" list exactly!!!

[Charger74]

You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Charger74

You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.

Hi

The 350/460 series comprises of 63 subjects. Towards the end of the T206 production (circa..early 1911), American Lithographic divided these cards into the 2 print groups (which I've
designated as Group A and Group B)......



Group A

.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Group B




All 63 of these cards were printed with the SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. But, they were NEVER issued to Factory #30 in New York to be inserted into cigarette packs. Instead,
they were stamped with Factory #42 overprints and shipped to the Liggett & Myers plant in Durham, NC. This change was done by ATC in anticipation of their divestiture in 1911.

Apparently, a recent find of a sheet (or several sheets) containing these 28 subjects (Group B) was discovered and (unfortunately) it was cut into individual cards.

Some years ago, a "scrap" sheet containing the 35 subjects in Group A was discovered with SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. Unfortunately, it was cut into individual cards.


This "proof" card of Johnson is an example of the 35 cards that were on the Group A sheet......


.



Also, check-out Posts #4, 5, and 8 in this thread for more info regarding the 350/460 series cards.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Back in 1980, when Bill Heitman published his famous book "the Monster", red HINDU cards very virtually unknown. The red HINDU back is not mentioned in "The Monster".
My understanding is that only a half a dozen of these very rare cards were known back in the 1970's, and T206 collectors did not really know what to make of them.

Since then, red HINDU cards have "trickled out of the woodwork". In recent years, a find of 13 red HINDU cards occurred in Texas. Ten of these 13 cards are subjects in the
460-only series Exclusive 12 group. The red HINDU's in the 350/460 series are considerably more difficult to find than the Exclusive 12 guys with red HINDU.

For you rare back collectors here are factors (rules) to keep in mind when you are chasing after certain T206 front/back combos......

In the 350/460 series......the red HINDU cards are "matched pairs" with the BROAD LEAF 460 cards (printed circa..late 1910).

Furthermore, T206's with these backs are mutually-exclusive with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards (printed early 1911).

This hypothesis was first presented on this forum in April 2010 in this fascinating thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=122474&page=2

This mutually-exclusive factor is the result of American Lithographic dividing the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series into 2 print groups (at the end of their T206 production.
Circa..late 1910 > early 1911. I have designated these 2 print groups as Group A and Group B. The red HINDU's and BROAD LEAF 460 backs were printed on these subjects
in Group A.

Group A
.




Checklist…...total = 44

To date, 32 subjects have been confirmed with the red HINDU back in the 350/460 series.

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)

Magee (bat)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

The following 3 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. I expect all three will eventually be found.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
Reulbach (no glove)


460-only series......Exclusive 12

These 12 confirmed subjects are the only red HINDU cards in the 460-only series. Furthermore, these 12
are definitely more available with the red HINDU back than the above listed subjects in the 350/460 series.
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Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat



Red HINDU is one of my favorite T206 backs. Currently, I have 14 of them. Here's a sampling of HINDU's in my collection.

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My first red HINDU (acquired in the 1980's)

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Hey guys...... how's about posting some of your red HINDU cards here....let's see how many different cards we can come up with ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Sean]

Ted, here's a quote from Heitman:

Most Hindu backs are printed in brown and according to the theory contain only fronts which were issued with the Series 150 cards. However, recently at least six Hindu backs with a distinct red rather than brown back printing have been found. All six fronts correspond to player poses issued only in the 460 series. Unfortunately, not enough is known about this apparent anomaly to theorize about the Hindu red printed backs."

So Heitman was aware of them, but had only the most basic information about them. I'll try to post a scan of my only RH in a couple days.