Post national

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are of course expenses in setting up at a card show, but at the same time a dealer doesn't have to give x percent to ebay/paypal when making an in person sale. So I am not seeing this as a justification for charging exorbitant prices. And in any event, reducing prices might lead to higher profits if you sell more cards.

To me it's an insane situation when guys like Steve and Jesse who are willing to pay strong prices for cards come home literally with nothing because the prices were so ridiculous.

[the-illini]

I guess don't go to the National with the intent of buying cards then?

I see plenty of exorbitant prices on Ebay every day as well.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are of course expenses in setting up at a card show, but at the same time a dealer doesn't have to give x percent to ebay/paypal when making an in person sale. So I am not seeing this as a justification for charging exorbitant prices. And in any event, reducing prices might lead to higher profits if you sell more cards.

To me it's an insane situation when guys like Steve and Jesse who are willing to pay strong prices for cards come home literally with nothing because the prices were so ridiculous.

[packs]

I still don't understand the philosophy that if you buy a card in person at a show you should expect to pay more than market value. Why, exactly? Because a guy shelled out money to rent a table? He didn't do it for his health. Let him sell his cards to pay for his table. Or, as is usually the custom, out price any buyers and walk away without selling anything.

I feel the same way when I try to negotiate a deal anywhere. Some guy will always say, "well, i have X into it". I don't care what you have into it. What you paid for something isn't what dictates a sale price.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I still don't understand the philosophy that if you buy a card in person at a show you should expect to pay more than market value. Why, exactly? Because a guy shelled out money to rent a table? He didn't do it for his health. Let him sell his cards to pay for his table. Or, as is usually the custom, out price any buyers and walk away without selling anything.

I feel the same way when I try to negotiate a deal anywhere. Some guy will always say, "well, i have X into it". I don't care what you have into it. What you paid for something isn't what dictates a sale price.

Agreed. It sounds nice but it's illogical.

[the-illini]

So you want dealers to pay market, set up at a card show, and sell at market?

That's a good business model.

Originally Posted by packs

I still don't understand the philosophy that if you buy a card in person at a show you should expect to pay more than market value. Why, exactly? Because a guy shelled out money to rent a table? He didn't do it for his health. Let him sell his cards to pay for his table. Or, as is usually the custom, out price any buyers and walk away without selling anything.

I feel the same way when I try to negotiate a deal anywhere. Some guy will always say, "well, i have X into it". I don't care what you have into it. What you paid for something isn't what dictates a sale price.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the-illini

So you want dealers to pay market, set up at a card show, and sell at market?

That's a good business model.

A better one than not selling.

[the-illini]

Not really. I would rather still own the card than sell at or below cost.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A better one than not selling.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Not really. I would rather still own the card than sell at or below cost.

That's fine and your choice, but at the same time I think it's irrational to expect me to pay you more than a card is worth because it cost you money to set up.

[ullmandds]

The dynamics and psychology of buying and selling sure have changed!

I should pay more because I can hold a card in my hand prior to purchase?

I should pay more for a card because said seller has fees(which I'd assume can be written off as business expenses)associated with doing said business?

I as an attendant of any national usually have fees associated with my being there as well...transportation...hotel...etc.

The national is fun...its social...and it's cool to see buttloads of impressive cards and memorabilia...BUT...I stand my my overly negative comment that many cards are dramatically overpriced.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the-illini

So you want dealers to pay market, set up at a card show, and sell at market?

That's a good business model.

If dealers are paying market, then they aren't dealers they are collectors. Retail stores don't buy their stock from Wal-Mart and expect to sell it in their store. If they want to be a dealer, they need to develop wholesale markets. Otherwise, be prepared to operate on really thin margins.

If they sell on EBay, they are losing 13%. With an AH, around 20%. How much more do they need to cover expenses? I go to the National expecting to pay more, but not 20 or 30 percent. Supporting dealers only goes so far. I am buying higher dollar cards, so I am not interested in covering all their expenses to buy a card or two from them. If we are talking four figures, I will just wait for it to come up for auction.

[rainier2004]

We are also not comparing apples to apples here, all psa 3s are not created equal for instance.

At the show you get to see the color, its not enhanced by scans. You can look for imperfections all you want while talking to dealer, who like Chris, is really a collector in disguise. You may not buy the card but that dealer may lead you to a card, or maybe not.

People "overpay" at auction all the time, I believe a member just got hammered for this not long ago. At the show you can be the judge of everything and you get to know who stands with integrity. I would much rather do a deal with someone I trust any day and I don't overpay. Quality sells, integrity seals the deal and this is on display best at the National.

[wdwfan]

It's ashamed people aren't willing to pay say 10-15% more to be able to see and feel the card as well as walk out with it in hand and not have to wait a week for it to be shipped.

I'm with most everyone here that believes cards in person should be a little higher than eBay/market. A little like 10-15%, not double or triple.

If you want to sit at home by yourself on your computer, then buy at market/ebay price and don't go to National. But if you are willing to pay a tad bit more, visit with friends you only see once a year, see stuff in auction houses, other dealers that you'll never see on eBay, etc. then go to the National.

[OsFan]

No one way to collect is better than another. But I am genuinely surprised so many go to the national with what sounds like very limited want lists.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by wdwfan

It's ashamed people aren't willing to pay say 10-15% more to be able to see and feel the card as well as walk out with it in hand and not have to wait a week for it to be shipped.

I'm with most everyone here that believes cards in person should be a little higher than eBay/market. A little like 10-15%, not double or triple.

If you want to sit at home by yourself on your computer, then buy at market/ebay price and don't go to National. But if you are willing to pay a tad bit more, visit with friends you only see once a year, see stuff in auction houses, other dealers that you'll never see on eBay, etc. then go to the National.

10-20% is fine. However, if I see a dude selling a 1956 Mantle PSA 5 for $2,500, I will just laugh, shake my head, and reminisce about the time I sold my 6.5 for $800.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

10-20% is fine. However, if I see a dude selling a 1956 Mantle PSA 5 for $2,500, I will just laugh, shake my head, and reminisce about the time I sold my 6.5 for $800.

I wasn't there, but received many communications from guys who were telling me about prices on cards I want, and most were both ridiculous and apparently non-negotiable.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

I still don't understand the philosophy that if you buy a card in person at a show you should expect to pay more than market value. Why, exactly? Because a guy shelled out money to rent a table? He didn't do it for his health. Let him sell his cards to pay for his table. Or, as is usually the custom, out price any buyers and walk away without selling anything.

I feel the same way when I try to negotiate a deal anywhere. Some guy will always say, "well, i have X into it". I don't care what you have into it. What you paid for something isn't what dictates a sale price.

Right, we are basically supporting the hobby. Shows will just disappear all together if you are looking at ebay prices minus 10% (people find direct deals all the time on ebay so that 10% doesnt really mean 10%)

If you are fine with just buying online the rest of the way or going to auction houses than so be it. Just dont complain about the lack of good shows or cards stores

There are always extremes of the guys that want 3x market price. However there are a lot of cards that are 10% over ebay market price that no one will touch because they are over priced. We dont need to talk about the cards that are 3x teh price.....there are plenty, i mean plenty of cards a shade over ebay price that wont get bought by the people that say that cant find any good shows or card stores.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by the-illini

I guess don't go to the National with the intent of buying cards then?

I see plenty of exorbitant prices on Ebay every day as well.

Some people will be pessimistic no matter what. If I offered everyone on the board 1 million dollars for free, some would be pissed they didn't get more. It's human nature to gripe, I guess. Just take my wife........please . (that was my worst Rodney Dangerfield, but there is more)

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Leon

Some people will be pessimistic no matter what. If I offered everyone on the board 1 million dollars for free, some would be pissed they didn't get more. It's human nature to gripe, I guess. Just take my wife........please . (that was my worst Rodney Dangerfield, but there is more)

I heard more Henny Youngman......

[herbc]

Originally Posted by biohazard

I heard more Henny Youngman......

Beat me to it....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by herbc

Beat me to it....

I got more responses from my misquoted comedian than I do on some really good informative threads. Where is the justice? (I said that myself so I doubt it's misquoted)

.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Leon

Some people will be pessimistic no matter what. If I offered everyone on the board 1 million dollars for free, some would be pissed they didn't get more. It's human nature to gripe, I guess. Just take my wife........please . (that was my worst Rodney Dangerfield, but there is more)

Henny Youngman, actually. Rodney was "no respect".

Best sign I saw all week: "I don't care about eBay fees"

I do agree that some people can't be happy no matter what; reminds me of this joke: A woman is walking on the beach with her young son when a rogue wave takes the boy out to sea. She prays for his return and another rogue wave brings him back. She then looks up and says "he had a hat."

Part of the benefit of being able to buy at a show is being able to look at the card in hand, to negotiate over price, and to move on if you don't like what you see or what you are asked to pay. Get over your bad investor selves, people. If a card is really hard to find there is no 'market' and a seller is justified asking whatever he wants; if the card is readily found, move on to another table with it and let the dealer enjoy his card museum. I visited 'my' card at one table every year at the National for a decade. No one ever bought it because the price was so out of whack. It became sort of a running joke for me: go to the show and visit the card. I finally found one on eBay for a fraction of the cost. The dealer has stopped setting up.

[herbc]

Originally Posted by Leon

Some people will be pessimistic no matter what. If I offered everyone on the board 1 million dollars for free, some would be pissed they didn't get more. It's human nature to gripe, I guess. Just take my wife........please . (that was my worst Rodney Dangerfield, but there is more)

Mmmm.... Henny Youngman? No respect = Rodney. I'm just old.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are of course expenses in setting up at a card show, but at the same time a dealer doesn't have to give x percent to ebay/paypal when making an in person sale. So I am not seeing this as a justification for charging exorbitant prices. And in any event, reducing prices might lead to higher profits if you sell more cards.

To me it's an insane situation when guys like Steve and Jesse who are willing to pay strong prices for cards come home literally with nothing because the prices were so ridiculous.

To be fair I did see quite a few cards for sale at reasonable prices, they just weren't quite what I was looking for in terms of centering or grade. I almost bought a yellow 33 ruth at the last minute that was a fair price but was a little lower grade than I want. Some prices were high, but if I saw exactly what I wanted I think a deal could have been made.

Don Hontz in particular had several high quality cards at what I felt were fair prices.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

To be fair I did see quite a few cards for sale at reasonable prices, they just weren't quite what I was looking for in terms of centering or grade. I almost bought a yellow 33 ruth at the last minute that was a fair price but was a little lower grade than I want. Some prices were high, but if I saw exactly what I wanted I think a deal could have been made.

Don Hontz in particular had several high quality cards at what I felt were fair prices.

Fair enough. Almost nothing I "looked at" indirectly was what I would consider fairly priced though, with one exception. Not even close.

[packs]

I see the same guys with the same cards at the same tables every time I go to the White Plains show. They never sell anything.

[scooter729]

For those who don't ever want to sell below their cost, does the same hold true when prices go up? You have to look at what the current market dictates.

If I bought a Ruth card 20 years ago for $1K and the going rate now is $5K, it doesn't matter that I paid $1K; I want to get $5K for it. But if you try that strategy with a McGwire rookie that you bought 20 years ago, the market has dropped and you can't make your cost back - too bad. You should sell at the fair market price, regardless of what your cost was.

For example, I have Red Sox season tickets, and sell them sometimes when I can't go or have extras. I sell them at the market price, regardless of face. For a crappy cold game in April, I realize no one will pay my cost, so I usually sell at half my cost. But if there's a big Yankees game on a Saturday in July, you bet I'll ask more than face value. I get people who complain that they only want to pay face for my tickets, to which I reply, "I have some tickets at face for a bad game on a Tuesday in September that might be of interest." Surprisingly, they never bite at that offer.

[Andrew1975]

Assuming that a dealer is sensible, and also actually motivated to move the items they have for sale, supply and demand will always dictate price. Perhaps the rationale is that for certain high end items, the demand is probably greater, and supply lower - in that room at that time, and therefore the higher price may be justified. I would guess that the rarer and more desirable the item, the more exaggerated the price differential is. Also, some dealers seem to be fine with setting up at shows and displaying their items, as if a museum, with little desire to actually sell anything. Like someone else said, I have seen the same items, at the same dealers tables, at show after show after show... This also happens on eBay. I hope to make it to Cleveland next year, even if my expectations on getting the deal of a lifetime (or even paying VCP for a card) are low. I hope everyone that went to Chicago had a great time and came home with good stuff.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fair enough. Almost nothing I "looked at" indirectly was what I would consider fairly priced though, with one exception. Not even close.

High prices were definitely the norm. But I saw a couple Ryan RCs at one table for not much more than 3k in psa 8. A few red cobbs at reasonable prices. That yellow Ruth I mentioned was a psa 2.5 for 2800. About what I would expect to pay at auction. I saw plenty of deals being made, but unfortunately didn't make any my self. I am bidding on a few cards at auction that I got to see in person.

And I met quite a few people, some of which I had done business or chatted with online. Not a total loss. Plus I had a good time with my step dad and brother.

[Boccabella]

One huge benefit of a show is the ability to buy multiple cards at one time. Most dealers, if you buy more than one card, WILL provide a discount. eBay isn't set up for that. Pricing becomes more in line with online when quantity becomes part of the equation. I find it much more fulfilling to knock numerous cards off a list at one time or buy a few things that catch my eye at one really terrific show than buy from 14 different sellers on eBay over a period of days, weeks or months just to save a few bucks.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

I wouldn't trust opinions of those that didn't attend. And for those that have never been, I highly recommend you do. It's a sportscard nerd's Disneyland. You can literally look at every booth and see something new each day. Four football fields filled with eye candy. You're among "your people" too. So many chances to exchange hobby knowledge with card buddies around the globe. Sure there's some high priced stuff compared to vcp avg (especially at booths run by collectors). But plenty of deals to be had as well depending on what you're looking for. Most dealers I talked to thought it was the best show in many years, so I'm guessing most buyers found what they were looking for at agreeable prices. I went with a one card mission. To buy a 51 Bowman Mantle in a 4 grade. I saw some on the low end at $5200 and even one at $15k with a bunch in between.

[pokerplyr80]

I saw that one AJ. It was dead centered, as was the psa 5 for 20k at the same table. Those are the type of cards that shatter VCP records when they come up at auction. Unfortunately they rarely do.

[Kevin Savage]

I have found this thread to make great reading. I am a dealer who has exhibited at the National every year since 1981- and it is always great to read the customers review of the show.

I exhibit at The National to do many things: 1) Buy 2) Sell 3) Re-engage existing customers 4) Make and meet new customers 5) Network with other dealers 6) Observe trends and learn what is happening in the macro of the hobby 7) Have some meals with old friends 8) Refocus my little company on the ultimate goal of serving our customers. 9) Have fun . (Not necessarily in that order!)

I think my company is able to accomplish most of these objectives at every National- but I think there is always room for improvement. I try to price my cards and memorabilia fairly- based on what I have had to pay for the stuff in today's market- and also what I feel is a price that will make a sale happen within a reasonable amount of time. I also try to buy at fair prices- without overpaying(though sometimes this happens)- with an eye to how the purchased items might be sold.

The ultimate success test - is if transactions happen. I believe this is true for buying and selling. I have a big sign in my office which says "YOU ARE NOT RUNNING A MUSEUM - KEEP THE INVENTORY MOVING".

One of the posts in this thread said something about many dealers not being very good at what they do..... and somedays that may be the case for me. But I, like most dealers I know, are trying to serve our customers fairly- and make a reasonable living at the same time. This can be a delicate balancing act. As collectors have hundreds of different ways to collect and enjoy the hobby- dealers have many different philosophies on how to run their businesses- with varying degrees of success and customer satisfaction.(As has been voiced in this thread).

I feel the beauty of the National is that it is big enough to allow most everybody to get out of it- what they want. To steal a couple song names from my favorite rock band "Dawes"- the National is "A Little Bit of Everything" and hopefully everyone can have fun "Somewhere Along the Way". I look forward to Cleveland in 2018.

[bbcard1]

At any show you have two types of dealers...there are guys like Wiliam Chappel and Dick Decoursey that actually are active dealers. They focus on profit but are nice and professional to deal with. There are also retired school teachers and postal workers who hold court over museums of their cardboard conquests without any particular need or ambition to sell.

[midmo]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

At any show you have two types of dealers...there are guys like Wiliam Chappel and Dick Decoursey that actually are active dealers. They focus on profit but are nice and professional to deal with. There are also retired school teachers and postal workers who hold court over museums of their cardboard conquests without any particular need or ambition to sell.

+1. A big part of going to shows for me is meeting people and making contacts. I was talking to William Chappell at a show last year (Strongsville, OH I think) and showed him my wantlist. He happened to have the Rogers Peet Dazzy Vance at home. We made a deal and he mailed it to me. Couldn't be happier.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Kevin Savage

I have found this thread to make great reading. I am a dealer who has exhibited at the National every year since 1981- and it is always great to read the customers review of the show.

I exhibit at The National to do many things: 1) Buy 2) Sell 3) Re-engage existing customers 4) Make and meet new customers 5) Network with other dealers 6) Observe trends and learn what is happening in the macro of the hobby 7) Have some meals with old friends 8) Refocus my little company on the ultimate goal of serving our customers. 9) Have fun . (Not necessarily in that order!)

I think my company is able to accomplish most of these objectives at every National- but I think there is always room for improvement. I try to price my cards and memorabilia fairly- based on what I have had to pay for the stuff in today's market- and also what I feel is a price that will make a sale happen within a reasonable amount of time. I also try to buy at fair prices- without overpaying(though sometimes this happens)- with an eye to how the purchased items might be sold.

The ultimate success test - is if transactions happen. I believe this is true for buying and selling. I have a big sign in my office which says "YOU ARE NOT RUNNING A MUSEUM - KEEP THE INVENTORY MOVING".

One of the posts in this thread said something about many dealers not being very good at what they do..... and somedays that may be the case for me. But I, like most dealers I know, are trying to serve our customers fairly- and make a reasonable living at the same time. This can be a delicate balancing act. As collectors have hundreds of different ways to collect and enjoy the hobby- dealers have many different philosophies on how to run their businesses- with varying degrees of success and customer satisfaction.(As has been voiced in this thread).

I feel the beauty of the National is that it is big enough to allow most everybody to get out of it- what they want. To steal a couple song names from my favorite rock band "Dawes"- the National is "A Little Bit of Everything" and hopefully everyone can have fun "Somewhere Along the Way". I look forward to Cleveland in 2018.

Anyone who says the regret going I don't get. All the activity, all the cards, all the wisdom in the room, all the history of the game . . .really pretty intoxicating. I was a little exhausted running around and not having enough time and was cranky at the end but I will definitely come back. We can all fight on prices, but the one thing I would say to dealers is please have your stuff priced. When things aren't marked at all I just assume you are trying to rip people off based on their appearance and sizing them up.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Anyone who says the regret going I don't get. All the activity, all the cards, all the wisdom in the room, all the history of the game . . .really pretty intoxicating. I was a little exhausted running around and not having enough time and was cranky at the end but I will definitely come back. We can all fight on prices, but the one thing I would say to dealers is please have your stuff priced. When things aren't marked at all I just assume you are trying to rip people off based on their appearance and sizing them up.

I didn't buy a card and I don't regret going. I enjoy talking to dealers that i know and auction houses i bid with. I enjoy looking at the cards and memorabilia. I also could see stuff at auction or up coming at auction that I will bid on.