Advice on Researching Negro League history

[bengineno9]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

If you have never been there - The Negro League Baseball Museum is downtown Kansas City. Awesome way to spend a day.... highly recommend

http://nlbm.com/

Very much agree. Visited a couple weeks ago. Incredible Museum. There was a nice gentleman who I think was the owner answering questions and visiting with people. Didn't get to meet him but im sure he would be very helpful if you made a call.

[Topnotchsy]

I started with newspapers.com and searched "Cannonball Redding" and have been clipping and printing the relevant sections.

Definitely some info here that I have not seen anywhere else yet, so should be fun. I'll post interesting tidbits as I go along (if anyone is interested.)

[jerseygary]

The Seamheads stats are compiled from verified box scores and game accounts against Negro league (loose term for other top-level Black baseball teams). You have to remember that top Blackball teams back in Redding's day played most of their games against white semi-pro and town teams. In Redding's day, games against other top Black teams were usually only scheduled once or twice a week, simply because there weren't that many of them, and the games against the white teams were more lucrative.

Plus, you have to remember that although all pre-Jackie Robinson Black baseball teams are called "The Negro Leagues", There were gaps in which there was no established league, and some teams like many of the ones Cannonball Redding played for were non-league teams, preferring to stay independent because there was more money playing white semi-pro teams.

So when someone writes that Redding pitched 30 no-hitters, you have to think that he was probably pitching against a town team from Wallington, NJ, a shoe company sponsored team or other semi-pro club. To really see how Redding or any of his contemporaries matched up against top-drawer talent, look how he did against teams of barnstorming major minor leaguers or a really good semi-pro team loaded with ex or future big leaguers like the Brooklyn Bushwicks or Paterson Silk Sox.

Because of lack of comprehensive newspaper coverage at the time, the exploits of those old Blackball guys became more and more distorted through oral re-telling. All the recent research kind of knocks them back to size again, dispelling long held myths like Josh Gibson hit 72 home runs in a year and all that. Does it diminish their level of play - no, not at all - but it puts them in better focus.

Negro League research and trying to figure out how good they really were gets really murky, but if you try hard enough, it starts to get at least a little clearer. You might want to pick up a copy of Scott Simkus' book "Outsider Baseball". He really gets into the statistical analysis of the Negro Leagues and comparing them against white players of the era. Personally I think Simkus' book is the most important baseball history book to come along in a decade and I highly recommend it.

To get back to Redding, his Seamhead stats might not match up to the hype published about him in older books, but you have to understand how the teams he played for operated, which was completely different than white major and minor league play. You'll never have a clear line of stats that can compare to Walter Johnson's entry in the Baseball Encyclopedia, but with creative research, contemporary accounts and some hard work you can get an idea of how those guys match up.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by jerseygary

The Seamheads stats are compiled from verified box scores and game accounts against Negro league (loose term for other top-level Black baseball teams). You have to remember that top Blackball teams back in Redding's day played most of their games against white semi-pro and town teams. In Redding's day, games against other top Black teams were usually only scheduled once or twice a week, simply because there weren't that many of them, and the games against the white teams were more lucrative.

Plus, you have to remember that although all pre-Jackie Robinson Black baseball teams are called "The Negro Leagues", There were gaps in which there was no established league, and some teams like many of the ones Cannonball Redding played for were non-league teams, preferring to stay independent because there was more money playing white semi-pro teams.

So when someone writes that Redding pitched 30 no-hitters, you have to think that he was probably pitching against a town team from Wallington, NJ, a shoe company sponsored team or other semi-pro club. To really see how Redding or any of his contemporaries matched up against top-drawer talent, look how he did against teams of barnstorming major minor leaguers or a really good semi-pro team loaded with ex or future big leaguers like the Brooklyn Bushwicks or Paterson Silk Sox.

Because of lack of comprehensive newspaper coverage at the time, the exploits of those old Blackball guys became more and more distorted through oral re-telling. All the recent research kind of knocks them back to size again, dispelling long held myths like Josh Gibson hit 72 home runs in a year and all that. Does it diminish their level of play - no, not at all - but it puts them in better focus.

Negro League research and trying to figure out how good they really were gets really murky, but if you try hard enough, it starts to get at least a little clearer. You might want to pick up a copy of Scott Simkus' book "Outsider Baseball". He really gets into the statistical analysis of the Negro Leagues and comparing them against white players of the era. Personally I think Simkus' book is the most important baseball history book to come along in a decade and I highly recommend it.

To get back to Redding, his Seamhead stats might not match up to the hype published about him in older books, but you have to understand how the teams he played for operated, which was completely different than white major and minor league play. You'll never have a clear line of stats that can compare to Walter Johnson's entry in the Baseball Encyclopedia, but with creative research, contemporary accounts and some hard work you can get an idea of how those guys match up.

Thanks for the response! I was actually looking at Simkus's book last night after posting because I had recalled that this was a topic he grappled with extensively.

Part of what I am trying hoping to be able to do is to recreate what a "season" might have looked like beyond the games that a place like Seamhead would have included to get a feel for what that really would have looked and felt like. So for Redding for example, I've been able to find that he was frequently lent out to Pittsburgh Colored Stars because of a relationship the owners had where he would at times pitch both games of a double-header and in one article it indicates it was his "second of ten visits" so it was clearly something they had planned on being an ongoing thing.

Thanks!

[jerseygary]

Are you trying to recreate the 1929 season to go along with that contract? If so, you know Redding played primarily for the Brooklyn Royal Giants that year. The BRG's were based out of NYC and did not do the crazy amount of traveling team suchs such as the KC Monarchs or Homestead Grays did, since they had tons of great competition just in NY, NJ and PA. Because of this it may be easier to get a good grasp of what their schedule was like since you don't have to check hundreds of small newspapers in dozens of states.

It'll still be like chasing needles in a haystack, but that's the fun part!

[earlywynnfan]

You need to find Dr. Layton Revel.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by jerseygary

Are you trying to recreate the 1929 season to go along with that contract? If so, you know Redding played primarily for the Brooklyn Royal Giants that year. The BRG's were based out of NYC and did not do the crazy amount of traveling team suchs such as the KC Monarchs or Homestead Grays did, since they had tons of great competition just in NY, NJ and PA. Because of this it may be easier to get a good grasp of what their schedule was like since you don't have to check hundreds of small newspapers in dozens of states.

It'll still be like chasing needles in a haystack, but that's the fun part!

I hadn't started with a specific plan, but that seems like it could be fun (although 1929 is after his prime, so depending on what I find I may end up looking back to earlier in his career but it does give things a good focus.)

One interesting thing I found, in the Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues it lists a Sam Redding who played in 1929 who was a brother of Dick Redding and played the Outfield, but in the papers from 1929 I'm reading about a Sam Redding who was the son of Dick Redding, and was a pitcher.

[Taxman]

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