T216s, how do they stack up with their E card counterparts?

buymycards · #1 09-24-2017, 07:10 AM

I also love the People's cards. I would think that all of these cards would sell for more than their caramel or baking counterparts, with Virginia Extra being the most difficult, Mino would be next, with Kotton being the most common.

There are a few things that I am unsure of in regard to the Kotton's. There are 3 different Kotton back's. Does each player have one of the backs that is the only back available for that particular player or is each player available with each of the 3 backs. Has anyone ever seen a player who has more than one of the available back styles?

Also, some of the Kotton's are available with a thin paper stock rather than a cardboard stock. Is the thin paper version limited to one style of back or do all 3 backs have a paper version? Do all of the players have a paper version?

What about Mino and Virginia Extra? Do they also have a paper version?

Thanks, Rick

ullmandds · #2 09-24-2017, 08:13 AM

I'm not sure for all players but I do know that the Dots Miller big glove is available in t216 with 5 possible backs...all 3 kottons, mino and blank. I currently have 4 of the 5.

And how could I forget the VE back as well...that's 6!!!!

edjs · #3 09-24-2017, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I'm not sure for all players but I do know that the Dots Miller big glove is available in t216 with 5 possible backs...all 3 kottons, mino and blank. I currently have 4 of the 5.

And how could I forget the VE back as well...that's 6!!!!

Pete, your run is a great example. And I wasn't thinking about the VE or MINO either, but I should. With Dots, which of the types were highest to get, and which were bargains, comparatively? And do you guys see the prices holding the same player to player? Say someone did a run with Speaker, would you expect the same price ratios if someone did a run with Fromme? Are there players that would be harder in the E sets than in T216, if so, which ones? Thanks.

ullmandds · #4 09-24-2017, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edjs

Pete, your run is a great example. And I wasn't thinking about the VE or MINO either, but I should. With Dots, which of the types were highest to get, and which were bargains, comparatively? And do you guys see the prices holding the same player to player? Say someone did a run with Speaker, would you expect the same price ratios if someone did a run with Fromme? Are there players that would be harder in the E sets than in T216, if so, which ones? Thanks.

The easiest to obtain for me was the mino...which tells you something about t216!!!!! Then the blank backs came to me...which there are 2 in existence I believe and I have both. Then one by one I acquired 2 of the kottons. This took me maybe 5-7 years btw.

I don't know if its others running me up because they know I want some of these cards...on the other hand I've had friends step aside for the sake of my run too. Point being miller is not priced at what a common would be. I've paid hofer money for a few...but never low common prices.

My advice if you are going for a run is not to tell many people!!!!!!! Try to obtain the majority before the secret is out!!!!

Were any bargains?????? The blank backs were the biggest bargains of the t216 millers I have. Right time right place.

buymycards · #5 09-24-2017, 10:07 AM

Hey guys, thanks for the answers!

Rick

edjs · #6 09-24-2017, 10:26 AM

Pete, thanks for the info. My point of the thread is really to just talk about cards. When you say you have two blank backs, do you mean two blank back T216 Miller, same pose for both? If so, that is very interesting. I've not seen two blank back T216 in the same pose before. If they are both Miller, could you show them, please?

ullmandds · #7 09-24-2017, 10:43 AM

if u must!

darwinbulldog · #8 09-24-2017, 10:35 AM

I've owned all of the ad backs at one point or another and have a couple in my current collection. I estimate that altogether there are about 1000 T216s. Probably all fronts were printed with all backs, but I think it's very unlikely that a master set is possible, given how poorly the thin ones have survived. The vast majority of the 300 or so surviving ones are in poor (or "authentic") condition.

The rarity ordering mentioned above is correct, and the two thin paper types are usually a bargain relative to their total numbers.

brass_rat · #9 09-24-2017, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buymycards

There are a few things that I am unsure of in regard to the Kotton's. There are 3 different Kotton back's. Does each player have one of the backs that is the only back available for that particular player or is each player available with each of the 3 backs. Has anyone ever seen a player who has more than one of the available back styles?

Also, some of the Kotton's are available with a thin paper stock rather than a cardboard stock. Is the thin paper version limited to one style of back or do all 3 backs have a paper version? Do all of the players have a paper version?

What about Mino and Virginia Extra? Do they also have a paper version?

Thanks, Rick

Hey Rick,

So the "paper version" is limited to Virginia Extra and the Kotton "Never Go Out" big scroll -- and all of the VE and KNGO are thin paper. The Kotton "Not in a Trust" (KNIT), Kotton 123 (K123), and Mino are all on regular stock.

Not all players are available with all backs, and this is very much true for the team variations.

Cheers,
Steve

Leon · #10 09-24-2017, 08:51 AM

I love the T216s and had a fair amount in my first collection. It took several years to get my first VE so I had to have one for my current collection too. I concur with what Steve said, right above, except I am hopeful all players can eventually be found with all backs. I haven't seen anything (yet) that makes me think we can't eventually find them. I haven't seen any of the back styles have a different type stock.
Overall, I don't think their value is as high as it should be relative to their extreme scarcity but then again I am biased..

brass_rat · #11 09-24-2017, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I concur with what Steve said, right above, except I am hopeful all players can eventually be found with all backs. I haven't seen anything (yet) that makes me think we can't eventually find them.

I don't have any formal proof yet, but I'm fairly confident that you can't find all players with all backs. I believe that the Kotton "Never Go Out" big scroll (KNGO) and the Virginia Extra were printed first on the thin paper. At the end of those runs, they started printing the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs.

If you look at the team changes as well as the players with only one team, you'll see what I mean.

For example, Fred Jacklitsch -- he played with Philly through the 1910 season, then in the minors for 1911 through 1913, and then went to the Baltimore Feds for the 1914-1915 seasons. He has with Phila. Nat. and Baltimore Feds cards in the set, but you'll only find the KNGO and VE backs with Phila. Nat. You won't find those two backs with Baltimore, but you will find K123 and Mino backs with Baltimore

Another example is Ray Demmitt. He only has Chicago Am. cards, and he played for them in 1914-1915. I'd love to see someone show a KNGO or VE of Demmitt, but I don't think they exist. The K123 and Mino definitely exist.

Eddie Plank is only pictured with St. Louis Feds, and he played with them in 1915. You won't find a KNGO or VE of him, but the K123 and Mino exist.

On the flip side, Lajoie Cleveland Amer. (fielding) I believe is only ever found with a KNGO back (although I think I VE could exist). Lajoie was with Cleveland through the 1914 season before going to the Philadelphia Athletics for 1915-1916. The Lajoie Portrait is only found with Phila. Americans team caption, and isn't found with the KNGO back, but definitely has the K123 and Mino backs. (I think the KNIT back could exist, but I haven't confirmed it...only my list of things to do.)

Chief Bender (striped cap, Baltimore Feds) -- he played with them in 1915, and that can be found with the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs. The striped cap with Phila. Am. is found with the KNGO and VE backs. (I'd be interested to see Phila. Am / striped cap with any of the KNIT, K123, or Mino backs -- I haven't seen them, but since he was with them through 1914, perhaps they exist.)

(If anyone has any of the backs that I claim don't exist, please do show! I'd love to be wrong here.

)

Cheers,
Steve

Leon · #12 09-24-2017, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brass_rat

I don't have any formal proof yet, but I'm fairly confident that you can't find all players with all backs. I believe that the Kotton "Never Go Out" big scroll (KNGO) and the Virginia Extra were printed first on the thin paper. At the end of those runs, they started printing the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs.

If you look at the team changes as well as the players with only one team, you'll see what I mean.

For example, Fred Jacklitsch -- he played with Philly through the 1910 season, then in the minors for 1911 through 1913, and then went to the Baltimore Feds for the 1914-1915 seasons. He has with Phila. Nat. and Baltimore Feds cards in the set, but you'll only find the KNGO and VE backs with Phila. Nat. You won't find those two backs with Baltimore, but you will find K123 and Mino backs with Baltimore

Another example is Ray Demmitt. He only has Chicago Am. cards, and he played for them in 1914-1915. I'd love to see someone show a KNGO or VE of Demmitt, but I don't think they exist. The K123 and Mino definitely exist.

Eddie Plank is only pictured with St. Louis Feds, and he played with them in 1915. You won't find a KNGO or VE of him, but the K123 and Mino exist.

On the flip side, Lajoie Cleveland Amer. (fielding) I believe is only ever found with a KNGO back (although I think I VE could exist). Lajoie was with Cleveland through the 1914 season before going to the Philadelphia Athletics for 1915-1916. The Lajoie Portrait is only found with Phila. Americans team caption, and isn't found with the KNGO back, but definitely has the K123 and Mino backs. (I think the KNIT back could exist, but I haven't confirmed it...only my list of things to do.)

Chief Bender (striped cap, Baltimore Feds) -- he played with them in 1915, and that can be found with the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs. The striped cap with Phila. Am. is found with the KNGO and VE backs. (I'd be interested to see Phila. Am / striped cap with any of the KNIT, K123, or Mino backs -- I haven't seen them, but since he was with them through 1914, perhaps they exist.)

(If anyone has any of the backs that I claim don't exist, please do show! I'd love to be wrong here.

)

Cheers,
Steve

Thanks Steve. Ok, I guess some won't be found.

gabrinus · #13 09-24-2017, 02:56 PM

Awesome thread guys......Jerry

x2drich2000 · #14 09-24-2017, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brass_rat

I don't have any formal proof yet, but I'm fairly confident that you can't find all players with all backs. I believe that the Kotton "Never Go Out" big scroll (KNGO) and the Virginia Extra were printed first on the thin paper. At the end of those runs, they started printing the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs.

If you look at the team changes as well as the players with only one team, you'll see what I mean.

For example, Fred Jacklitsch -- he played with Philly through the 1910 season, then in the minors for 1911 through 1913, and then went to the Baltimore Feds for the 1914-1915 seasons. He has with Phila. Nat. and Baltimore Feds cards in the set, but you'll only find the KNGO and VE backs with Phila. Nat. You won't find those two backs with Baltimore, but you will find K123 and Mino backs with Baltimore

Another example is Ray Demmitt. He only has Chicago Am. cards, and he played for them in 1914-1915. I'd love to see someone show a KNGO or VE of Demmitt, but I don't think they exist. The K123 and Mino definitely exist.

Eddie Plank is only pictured with St. Louis Feds, and he played with them in 1915. You won't find a KNGO or VE of him, but the K123 and Mino exist.

On the flip side, Lajoie Cleveland Amer. (fielding) I believe is only ever found with a KNGO back (although I think I VE could exist). Lajoie was with Cleveland through the 1914 season before going to the Philadelphia Athletics for 1915-1916. The Lajoie Portrait is only found with Phila. Americans team caption, and isn't found with the KNGO back, but definitely has the K123 and Mino backs. (I think the KNIT back could exist, but I haven't confirmed it...only my list of things to do.)

Chief Bender (striped cap, Baltimore Feds) -- he played with them in 1915, and that can be found with the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs. The striped cap with Phila. Am. is found with the KNGO and VE backs. (I'd be interested to see Phila. Am / striped cap with any of the KNIT, K123, or Mino backs -- I haven't seen them, but since he was with them through 1914, perhaps they exist.)

(If anyone has any of the backs that I claim don't exist, please do show! I'd love to be wrong here.

)

Cheers,
Steve

Steve, out of curiosity, have you ever seen a Young with anything other than KNGO back? From my very limited observations, I have seen this back multiple times, but never any others. This would also support your KNGO first theory since Young last played in 1911.

DJ

Yoda · #15 09-24-2017, 04:54 PM

I have a Cobb SGC 1.5 with a Kotton Cigarettes- Mild and Sweet back (sorry, scanning is not one of my strengths) that I doubt I will ever part with. One thing I always wondered is why a single tobacco company issued their product with 3 different backs and a limited distribution, and thought perhaps each brand carried a different type or strength of tobacco. These are the issues that keep me awake at night.

edjs · #16 09-24-2017, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

I have a Cobb SGC 1.5 with a Kotton Cigarettes- Mild and Sweet back (sorry, scanning is not one of my strengths) that I doubt I will ever part with. One thing I always wondered is why a single tobacco company issued their product with 3 different backs and a limited distribution, and thought perhaps each brand carried a different type or strength of tobacco. These are the issues that keep me awake at night.

Which Cobb, batting or leaning on bat?

Aaron Seefeldt · #17 09-25-2017, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

I have a Cobb SGC 1.5 with a Kotton Cigarettes- Mild and Sweet back (sorry, scanning is not one of my strengths) that I doubt I will ever part with. One thing I always wondered is why a single tobacco company issued their product with 3 different backs and a limited distribution, and thought perhaps each brand carried a different type or strength of tobacco. These are the issues that keep me awake at night.

Hi John... you always do have some nice little goodies tucked away. That's a great Cobb!

brass_rat · #18 09-24-2017, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

Steve, out of curiosity, have you ever seen a Young with anything other than KNGO back? From my very limited observations, I have seen this back multiple times, but never any others. This would also support your KNGO first theory since Young last played in 1911.

DJ

I agree, DJ -- I, too, have only ever seen the KNGO back, and I expect that only it and a VE are possible (although I have not seen/heard of anyone having a VE).

Cheers,
Steve

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
WTT: Doyle Bat & Doughety Arm In Air for SC460-42 counterparts	t206hound	T206 cards B/S/T	0	12-14-2014 08:54 PM
buying T216s	t213	Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T	0	02-05-2011 10:47 AM
Show your T216s	cozmokramer	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	9	01-31-2011 05:16 PM
Looking for T216s	cozmokramer	Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T	2	01-15-2011 09:28 PM
Show your cards of the Old Judge counterparts to the N162 BB players	tedzan	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	14	10-29-2010 03:35 PM