Were Group 1 Subjects Printed With EPDG Before PD 350 ?

[steve B]

High res scans would tell me a lot.
Sometimes wear is hard to tell because of how variable the inking levels were. I could probably tell if the last version was an attempted repair.

Someday I'll have to draw some pics explaining wear and inking to show how similar they can be. (And impression pressure, and the wetting of the stone/plate and .......

Steve B

[Pat R]

I only have the full version but here's one that is either the very beginning or
after it was fixed if it was.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Fr...IAAOSwH4NZgqXQ

And another full version
http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Frank-O...UAAOSwfVpYujDz

[steve B]

I'm almost certain that's not a repair. The screening is far too even and matches up perfectly.

Repair on the plate would be by stoning off the big spot, then redrawing the dots either by hand, or by laying down another piece of transfer. It's incredibly hard to do that and get it looking exactly right.

As an aside, the one from Deans has a transfer laydown problem on the frame at the upper left.

The transfers were made by printing with very thick tarlike ink onto basically tissue paper, then laying that on the stone in the right spot with some solvent. When it was good and stuck down water was used to remove the tissue. Some times the tissue would tear, and that is probably the cause.

Depending on how common the spot is, it could have been on the master stone, either early and later fixed by remaking the master, or more likely later when a bit of something got on the stone

Comparing the cards on Ebay, there are a couple 350's with decent scans
http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Owen-/3...QAAOSwDrlZfjUb

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Fr...EAAOSw9fNZgleV

Both are screened differently from all the 150's I looked at, it's more noticeable in the face.

A few things I haven't quite figured out on it.
The shape is interesting, being an irregular octagon. That's odd as I can't think of a way that shape was created. It's too uneven to be a nut or bolt head, and probably too uneven to be from a bit of scrap paper from an octagonal hole punch.
There's also a missing halftone dot just under the lower left of the bog dot. That could be missing, or not picked up because of whatever caused the spot, or just another bit that didn't transfer properly.

Steve B

[Pat R]

I finally did a little more research on some of the print flaws/defects
that I have been tracking and they have me leaning more towards the
EPDG printing for the 150/350 series starting at the tail end of the
150 series and I'm also starting to wonder if there were any leftover
150 fronts used for the 350 series.

I know it would be a small % of leftovers but I haven't found any
of these Flaws/defects (0-657) on a 350 back.

These are all card target sales that were listed under the specific
back and I didn't try to track re-sales on the larger number sales
like the PD150's which on average are probably around 15%.


Cicotte.jpg
PD150-5.jpgSC150-25.jpg
Sov150-2.jpg

Davis.jpg
img392.jpgDaves AMEP SC 150-649 - Copy - Copy.jpg
003 Davis Sov 150-1.jpg

Gibson.jpg
PD 150-1.jpgSC 150-30-2.jpg

Konetchy.jpg
PD150-2.jpgSC150-30-1.jpg

[Pat R]

Here are a few more

Lajoie.jpg
SC150-30-1.jpgSC150-649-1.jpg
PD150-2.jpgHindu.jpg

McGraw.jpg
PD 150-2.jpgPD 150-3.jpg

Owen.jpg
PD 150-12.jpgEPDG-2.jpg

[Pat R]

..
Pastorius.jpg
PD150-1.jpgSC150-30-1.jpg
SC150-649-1.jpg

Tenney.jpg
PD150-9.jpgSC150-30-2.jpg

[Pat R]

Last one
Wilhelm.jpgSC150-649-1.jpgPD150-2.jpg


I thought I found a PD 350 Wilhem with this flaw but the seller definitely
had the wrong back scan on this one
Wilhelm PD350 XXX.jpg

[Thromdog]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I finally did a little more research on some of the print flaws/defects
that I have been tracking and they have me leaning more towards the
EPDG printing for the 150/350 series starting at the tail end of the
150 series and I'm also starting to wonder if there were any leftover
150 fronts used for the 350 series.

Awesome research as always.....

So based on your results, when you say that you are leaning towards EPDG's printed early 350/late 150, is that based on the Owens alone? I ask because in the samples you have referenced, the Owens is the only flaw that is shared on an EPDG example.

Just wanting to clarify.

Thanks

[greco827]

It may have been in your count, as I purchased it off eBay in the last month, but I have a Pastorius PD350, which does not have the - next to the B on his cap.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Thromdog

Awesome research as always.....

So based on your results, when you say that you are leaning towards EPDG's printed early 350/late 150, is that based on the Owens alone? I ask because in the samples you have referenced, the Owens is the only flaw that is shared on an EPDG example.

Just wanting to clarify.

Thanks

Hi Jeff,

With the print flaws it's kind of based on just the Owen. Of the flaws I
posted Davis, Tenney and McGraw are not confirmed EPDG's and Konetchy
and Pastorius are confirmed but questionable. Both of the EPDG flaws are
found on Owen but it's still 2-29 EPDG's so if some of the 350's were
printed using front plates from the 150 series I would expect at least a
few examples out of the 657 from 350 series with some of these flaws.

The other thing as Luke pointed out is on average the close
to equal numbers of EPDG to PD 350 for the elite 11. I can't see why they
would pull them from the Piedmont 350 printing but not the EPDG so to
me the most logical reason for them being close in numbers is the EPDG
printing started during end of the 150 series and they were pulled around
the same time at the beginning of the 350 series printing and the Owen
with the same flaw indicates the 150 plates were used for at least some
of the EPDG's.

[Pat R]

Here's another EPDG Owen with the spot on his sleeve.

EPDG-3.jpg

This one puts the number of EPDG subjects with the spot at 3 out 5
and Scott has a new PD150 with the spot up on ebay now that puts
the number of PD150's with the spot at 14
https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Owen-F...4AAOSwZrhah06B

but I still haven't found any PD350's or any other 350 backs with this
spot as a matter of fact I still haven't found any of the variations that
are found on the 150 subjects on any 350 backs.

There have been discussions before about the EPDG and Old Mill
printing timeline for the 150 series and from the research I've
done I think they might have been done in this order


150 series with EPDG backs
150 series with PD350 backs
150 series with Old Mill backs
350 series with PD350 backs
350 series with EPDG backs
350 series with Old Mill backs