Larry Doyle and the HOF

[bn2cardz]

I don't have an answer as to why he never got in, but I can share some visuals to the thread:




https://www.flickr.com/photos/bn2car...57680676887830

[packs]

I've always thought he was a HOFer. He was the best second basemen in his league for pretty much his entire career. When you're the best player at your position for your generation, I don't see why that wouldn't merit a HOF induction.

[Brian Van Horn]

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[David W]

From baseball-reference.com - http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/3b7d0b88

He missed much of the 1918 season with illness but regained his starting position the next year, appearing in 100 games at second base and batting .289 with seven home runs. The 33-year-old Doyle remained a regular in 1920, closing out his major-league career by batting .285 in 137 games.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

It also says in this brief bio he and Mathewson watched the stock market closely, and Doyle bought real estate in Florida, so perhaps he was financially set and no longer needed the baseball money. He also turned down a 2 year, $27K contact to jump to the Federal League, to stay with the Giants for $8000, so perhaps he retired early due to illness, and being financially well off.

[Brian Van Horn]

Doyle also overcame tuberculosis. The following PBS documentary mentions him at the end of the presentation (50 minutes in):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexpe.../films/plague/

[RaidonCollects]

Larry Doyle is definitely a border-line HOFer, in my opinion though I dont know what to think. On one hand he has some very impressive statistics and one of the all time giants greats. On the other, it seems to me that he only just barely is better than some of the weaker HOF members (i.e Travis Jackson), and I'm against overcrowding the hall too much. Here are some stats though for those unfamiliar with Doyle:

-1912 NL MVP
-1911 placed 3rd for NL MVP
-10th career WAR for NY Giants
-Should have got a MVP mention for his 1915 season
-298 career SB
-4th career triples giants franchise
-2nd for career sacrifice hits giants
-25 triple season

Owen

[packs]

I know WAR and other advanced stats are supposed to eliminate the discussions of "in their day" but that discussion is no more apt than when discussing Doyle. Can anyone name one NL second baseman who had a better career than Larry Doyle at the time that his career was complete? I don't think you can. So while Doyle might have stats comparable to Travis Jackson, no one had stats comparable to Doyle while he was on the field. That says something to me.

[OldOriole]

Originally Posted by packs

I know WAR and other advanced stats are supposed to eliminate the discussions of "in their day" but that discussion is no more apt than when discussing Doyle. Can anyone name one NL second baseman who had a better career than Larry Doyle at the time that his career was complete? I don't think you can. So while Doyle might have stats comparable to Travis Jackson, no one had stats comparable to Doyle while he was on the field. That says something to me.

Sure...in the AL. Nap Lajoie and Eddie Collins both had careers that overlapped the majority of Doyle's. While Doyle had a very nice career, his numbers were not on the same level as these two HOFers. Their stats were more than comparable to Doyle's, they were superior. I still think Doyle was a heck of a ballplayer though.

Your point about the NL is a good one. I'm not sure there was anyone as good as him at 2B in the NL at the time he played. However, I think there were some who played 2B in the NL before his time that were as good as Doyle. This include Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson, and Bobby Lowe.

[packs]

Curious as to what metric you're using for Bobby Lowe being better than Larry Doyle. Lowe never led a single offensive category int he leagues he played in. His WAR is also half of Doyle's. I'm also not seeing Hardy Richardson being better than Doyle either. Doyle played more than three times as many games at second base than Richardson did.

Bid McPhee would be the closest but he spent 8 season in the American Association and his stats are a combination of a career spent in 2 leagues. It has always irked me that McPhee was able to get inducted but Stovey has not been able to, with the chief knock on Stovey being that he played in the AA.

[SteveMitchell]

Originally Posted by packs

I know WAR and other advanced stats are supposed to eliminate the discussions of "in their day" but that discussion is no more apt than when discussing Doyle. Can anyone name one NL second baseman who had a better career than Larry Doyle at the time that his career was complete? I don't think you can. So while Doyle might have stats comparable to Travis Jackson, no one had stats comparable to Doyle while he was on the field. That says something to me.

and

I've always thought he was a HOFer. He was the best second basemen in his league for pretty much his entire career. When you're the best player at your position for your generation, I don't see why that wouldn't merit a HOF induction.

"Packs" has said it very well. Modifying the title of Lawrence Ritter's classic a little: Larry Doyle was the glory of his time at second base! [in the National League]

[nat]

He was certainly good, but 6500 at bats isn't much for a hall of famer. The HOFers with that few at bats are mostly guys with other things going for them: Jackie Robinson, Ross Youngs (who probably doesn't belong anyway), guys like that. Joe Gordon had fewer, but at his best he was better than Doyle, and he also missed time in the war. Doyle's MVP probably also wasn't deserved. WAR likes Wagner's season, I think I'd give it to Heine Zimmerman. Triple crown winner who also led the league in hits, doubles, slugging percentage, and total bases.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

I've always thought he was a HOFer. He was the best second basemen in his league for pretty much his entire career. When you're the best player at your position for your generation, I don't see why that wouldn't merit a HOF induction.

No, you could argue he was the best at his position from 1909-1915, maybe. From 1916 on Rogers Hornsby was the best. In the other league Eddie Collins and Nap Lajoie were the best and all 3 are light years ahead of Doyle. Even Johnny Evers has a higher WAR and WAR7 and many don't think he belongs in the HOF. In 3 Hof ballots he received 4, 2 and 1 vote. Hall of Good not Hall of Fame.

[T206Collector]

Larry Doyle keeps me active because he signed so many pre-war cards. I'd vote for him for this reason alone!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Surprised nobody mentioned his awesome nickname "Laughing" Larry Doyle. Apparently he had so much fun and was so good-natured that he got that nickname. Again I'm not saying he belongs, but a guy like him was often put in by his peers on an Old-Timer ballot because he was so popular.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

No, you could argue he was the best at his position from 1909-1915, maybe. From 1916 on Rogers Hornsby was the best. In the other league Eddie Collins and Nap Lajoie were the best and all 3 are light years ahead of Doyle. Even Johnny Evers has a higher WAR and WAR7 and many don't think he belongs in the HOF. In 3 Hof ballots he received 4, 2 and 1 vote. Hall of Good not Hall of Fame.

I have no explanation for Evers' WAR but he was not a better player than Doyle. Doyle's OPS is 765, Evers is 690. Pretty big drop. Batting average for Doyle is much higher at 290 than Evers at 270. Doyle has more hits and better power numbers overall too in less seasons. Doyle slugs 70 points higher too.

I absolutely think Hornsby was infinitely better than Doyle, but I don't see how you can discount Doyle's entire career when he and Hornsby overlap for only 4 or so seasons.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

I have no explanation for Evers' WAR but he was not a better player than Doyle. Doyle's OPS is 765, Evers is 690. Pretty big drop. Batting average for Doyle is much higher at 290 than Evers at 270. Doyle has more hits and better power numbers overall too in less seasons. Doyle slugs 70 points higher too.

I absolutely think Hornsby was infinitely better than Doyle, but I don't see how you can discount Doyle's entire career when he and Hornsby overlap for only 4 or so seasons.

It is called defense. Evers was the best defensive 2nd baseman of the dead ball era. Doyle was bad, had a negative dWAR. I guess the only thing you care about is offense. I think defense is very important, especially for a middle infielder. Evers was better, in my opinion.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

It is called defense. Evers was the best defensive 2nd baseman of the dead ball era. Doyle was bad, had a negative dWAR. I guess the only thing you care about is offense. I think defense is very important, especially for a middle infielder. Evers was better, in my opinion.

dWAR isn't really a useful stat. It's not that I don't care about defense, it's that I don't care about dWAR. Mattingly's dWAR is -6.8 for his career. He won 9 Gold Gloves.

[OldOriole]

Gold glove awards are extremely subjective. Rafael Palmeiro won one in 1999 when he only played 28 games at first base and DH'ed the rest. Much like the MVP and All-Star voting, these results are often based on reputation and popularity rather than objective data.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

dWAR isn't really a useful stat. It's not that I don't care about defense, it's that I don't care about dWAR. Mattingly's dWAR is -6.8 for his career. He won 9 Gold Gloves.

Do you understand that is because of position adjustment? If we were comparing a 1b to a 2b, I would agree with you. We are comparing two players in the same era at the same position. It is a very good measure in this example. Evers was the best defensive 2b of his era. Doyle was a bad defensive 2b.