Larry Doyle and the HOF

RaidonCollects · #1 11-27-2017, 11:00 AM

Larry Doyle is definitely a border-line HOFer, in my opinion though I dont know what to think. On one hand he has some very impressive statistics and one of the all time giants greats. On the other, it seems to me that he only just barely is better than some of the weaker HOF members (i.e Travis Jackson), and I'm against overcrowding the hall too much. Here are some stats though for those unfamiliar with Doyle:

-1912 NL MVP
-1911 placed 3rd for NL MVP
-10th career WAR for NY Giants
-Should have got a MVP mention for his 1915 season
-298 career SB
-4th career triples giants franchise
-2nd for career sacrifice hits giants
-25 triple season

Owen

packs · #2 11-27-2017, 11:04 AM

I know WAR and other advanced stats are supposed to eliminate the discussions of "in their day" but that discussion is no more apt than when discussing Doyle. Can anyone name one NL second baseman who had a better career than Larry Doyle at the time that his career was complete? I don't think you can. So while Doyle might have stats comparable to Travis Jackson, no one had stats comparable to Doyle while he was on the field. That says something to me.

OldOriole · #3 11-27-2017, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I know WAR and other advanced stats are supposed to eliminate the discussions of "in their day" but that discussion is no more apt than when discussing Doyle. Can anyone name one NL second baseman who had a better career than Larry Doyle at the time that his career was complete? I don't think you can. So while Doyle might have stats comparable to Travis Jackson, no one had stats comparable to Doyle while he was on the field. That says something to me.

Sure...in the AL. Nap Lajoie and Eddie Collins both had careers that overlapped the majority of Doyle's. While Doyle had a very nice career, his numbers were not on the same level as these two HOFers. Their stats were more than comparable to Doyle's, they were superior. I still think Doyle was a heck of a ballplayer though.

Your point about the NL is a good one. I'm not sure there was anyone as good as him at 2B in the NL at the time he played. However, I think there were some who played 2B in the NL before his time that were as good as Doyle. This include Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson, and Bobby Lowe.

packs · #4 11-27-2017, 01:15 PM

Curious as to what metric you're using for Bobby Lowe being better than Larry Doyle. Lowe never led a single offensive category int he leagues he played in. His WAR is also half of Doyle's. I'm also not seeing Hardy Richardson being better than Doyle either. Doyle played more than three times as many games at second base than Richardson did.

Bid McPhee would be the closest but he spent 8 season in the American Association and his stats are a combination of a career spent in 2 leagues. It has always irked me that McPhee was able to get inducted but Stovey has not been able to, with the chief knock on Stovey being that he played in the AA.

SteveMitchell · #5 11-28-2017, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I know WAR and other advanced stats are supposed to eliminate the discussions of "in their day" but that discussion is no more apt than when discussing Doyle. Can anyone name one NL second baseman who had a better career than Larry Doyle at the time that his career was complete? I don't think you can. So while Doyle might have stats comparable to Travis Jackson, no one had stats comparable to Doyle while he was on the field. That says something to me.

and

I've always thought he was a HOFer. He was the best second basemen in his league for pretty much his entire career. When you're the best player at your position for your generation, I don't see why that wouldn't merit a HOF induction.

"Packs" has said it very well. Modifying the title of Lawrence Ritter's classic a little: Larry Doyle was the glory of his time at second base! [in the National League]

nat · #6 11-27-2017, 11:14 AM

He was certainly good, but 6500 at bats isn't much for a hall of famer. The HOFers with that few at bats are mostly guys with other things going for them: Jackie Robinson, Ross Youngs (who probably doesn't belong anyway), guys like that. Joe Gordon had fewer, but at his best he was better than Doyle, and he also missed time in the war. Doyle's MVP probably also wasn't deserved. WAR likes Wagner's season, I think I'd give it to Heine Zimmerman. Triple crown winner who also led the league in hits, doubles, slugging percentage, and total bases.

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