Larry Doyle and the HOF

OldOriole · #1 11-27-2017, 05:39 PM

Gold glove awards are extremely subjective. Rafael Palmeiro won one in 1999 when he only played 28 games at first base and DH'ed the rest. Much like the MVP and All-Star voting, these results are often based on reputation and popularity rather than objective data.

packs · #2 11-27-2017, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldOriole

Gold glove awards are extremely subjective. Rafael Palmeiro won one in 1999 when he only played 28 games at first base and DH'ed the rest. Much like the MVP and All-Star voting, these results are often based on reputation and popularity rather than objective data.

Of course, but that's why I specifically chose Mattingly to demonstrate my point re: the stat. Mattingly is no Palmeiro. He was a first baseman of the highest quality and he has a negative dWAR. In fact I just checked and Mattingly's career fielding percentage is 11th all time. Casey Kotchman has the highest fielding percentage among all first basemen according to BR. His career percentage is 998. He has a dWAR of -0.6.

OldOriole · #3 11-27-2017, 06:43 PM

I agree with you that dWar is far from perfect. However, I believe it is a much more accurate reflection of overall defense than fielding percentage. After all, other factors, such as range, are quite important. You can have a great fielding percentage but if you have the range of a fire hydrant it really weakens the fielding percentage stats. dWar is still being tweaked (and needs to be). I'm not sure it'll ever be perfect but I believe it's more encompassing than just fielding percentage. That being said, I'll once again state I think "Laughing" Larry was a heck of a player.

Kenny Cole · #4 11-27-2017, 10:44 PM

IMO, for the most part, HOF voters could care less about defense. I think that is pretty well true from 1936 on, with a couple of exceptions. Offensively, Doyle was WAAAAAAYYYYY ahead of Evers. He was also far more popular because Evers was, by all accounts, a prick. Doyle wasn't. I would have no problem with Doyle being elected but I'm pretty confident that it will not happen in my lifetime.

rats60 · #5 11-28-2017, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

IMO, for the most part, HOF voters could care less about defense. I think that is pretty well true from 1936 on, with a couple of exceptions. Offensively, Doyle was WAAAAAAYYYYY ahead of Evers. He was also far more popular because Evers was, by all accounts, a prick. Doyle wasn't. I would have no problem with Doyle being elected but I'm pretty confident that it will not happen in my lifetime.

This is just not true. Brooks Robinson, Ozzie Smith and Ivan Rodriguez were all 1st ballot Hofers. If they were average defensively, they would never make the HoF. Why are Ryne Sandberg and Roberto Alomar in the HoF, but a superior offensive player, Bobby Grich, getting no support? Ray Schalk, Rick Ferrell, Nellie Fox, Red Schoendiest, Bill Mazeroski, Johnny Evers, Pee Wee Reese, Luis Aparicio, Joe Tinker, Travis Jackson, Phil Rizzuto and Rabbit Maranville are examples of other players in the HOF only because of defense.

There are others who would at best be borderline Hofers if not for defense. There are guys, such as Ted Simmons, who would be in the HOF if voters only cared about offense, but was below average defensively. However, Gary Carter, who was worse offensively than Ted, is considered an elite player at his position because he combined elite defense with above average offense. Do I need to go on? It should be clear that Evers being the best defensive player of his era trumps Doyle's superior offense and bad defense. If voters don't care about defense, why has Doyle recieved so little support for the HOF going all the way back to the 30s?

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Laughing Larry Doyle	ajjohnsonsoxfan	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	16	02-05-2017 07:46 PM
FS: T205 Larry Doyle PSA 4	AddieJoss	Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T	0	04-02-2014 05:46 PM
E95 Larry Doyle SGC 88 NM/MT FS/FT	Jayjones82	Pre-WWII cards (E, D, M, etc..) B/S/T	1	01-27-2011 10:09 AM
E92 Nadja SGC 40 Larry Doyle	Exhibitman	Pre-WWII cards (E, D, M, etc..) B/S/T	0	08-13-2009 01:46 PM
T3 Larry Doyle for sale	Archive	Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T	1	01-16-2009 06:53 PM