Morris & Trammell Elected to HOF

btcarfagno · #1 12-11-2017, 05:20 AM

The argument for Ted Simmons? Pick any way you possibly want to look at it. Career stats. WAR. JAWS. Anything. Simmons is one of the top 13 (arguably top ten) catchers in the history of the game. Wouldn't you say that that is deserving on enshrinement?

Morris is pretty much the same pitcher as David Wells. Come on now. Hall Of Fame? I can name 40 or 50 pitchers who belong in the Hall before Jack Morris.

Garvey was a first baseman with ok power who had to hit .300 to have value because otherwise he would never have been on base. Will Clark deserves to be there before Garvey.

Reggie Smith? Not saying he belongs. But go check his stats again and get back to me. Much better player than Steve Garvey.

Tom C

rats60 · #2 12-11-2017, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

The argument for Ted Simmons? Pick any way you possibly want to look at it. Career stats. WAR. JAWS. Anything. Simmons is one of the top 13 (arguably top ten) catchers in the history of the game. Wouldn't you say that that is deserving on enshrinement?

Morris is pretty much the same pitcher as David Wells. Come on now. Hall Of Fame? I can name 40 or 50 pitchers who belong in the Hall before Jack Morris.

Garvey was a first baseman with ok power who had to hit .300 to have value because otherwise he would never have been on base. Will Clark deserves to be there before Garvey.

Reggie Smith? Not saying he belongs. But go check his stats again and get back to me. Much better player than Steve Garvey.

Tom C

Bill James has pointed out recently how flawed WAR is. Isn't it time for you to admit it to? Dwight Evans has a negative dWAR. Shouldn't that tell you how flawed it is?

I lived in LA during Garvey's prime. He was better than Reggie Smith. Garvey was the guy who got the big hits, drove in the runs that wins games. 10 time All Star 5 time NL champion, 1 time WS champion, 1 time MVP, 2 time NLCS MVP and 4 time gold glove. Holds NL record for consecutive games without an error. From 1974-1980 averaged 200 hits 100 RBI and .300 BA. Claiming that Smith was better based on a flawed advanced metric is absurd. Glad this Veteran's Committee is willing to think for themselves and elect Jack Morris, ignoring WAR. It is the Hall of Fame not Hall of High WAR or High JAWS.

btcarfagno · #3 12-11-2017, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Bill James has pointed out recently how flawed WAR is. Isn't it time for you to admit it to? Dwight Evans has a negative dWAR. Shouldn't that tell you how flawed it is?

I lived in LA during Garvey's prime. He was better than Reggie Smith. Garvey was the guy who got the big hits, drove in the runs that wins games. 10 time All Star 5 time NL champion, 1 time WS champion, 1 time MVP, 2 time NLCS MVP and 4 time gold glove. Holds NL record for consecutive games without an error. From 1974-1980 averaged 200 hits 100 RBI and .300 BA. Claiming that Smith was better based on a flawed advanced metric is absurd. Glad this Veteran's Committee is willing to think for themselves and elect Jack Morris, ignoring WAR. It is the Hall of Fame not Hall of High WAR or High JAWS.

Seasons OPS+ from best to worst

Smith 168 162 155 151 150 143 142 137 134 129 127 127 116 100
Garvey 138 134 133 130 130 125 124 122 115 110 109 109 101

And Reggie Smith played nearly half his career as an average center fielder and half his career as an average or slightly above right fielder. Both more demanding defensively than first base (center field far more so).

So Reggie Smith was a better hitter and fielder than Steve Garvey. But somehow Garvey is the better player. Nope.

Oh. And Reggie Smith was a seven time all star who deserved to be there nine time. Garvey was a ten time all star who deserved to be there seven times. Smith won a gold glove in center field. Garvey deserved (maybe) two at first base. Smith was a three time NL champion. One time AL champion. 1 time world champion. Smith deserved the MVP in 1977 while Garvey did not deserve the one that he won.

Career OPS+:

Smith 137
Garvey: 117

Career Win Probability Added:

Smith 42.89 (56th from 1930-present)
Garvey 27.2 (144th from 1930-present)

Adjusted Batting Runs

Smith 358 (92nd all time)
Garvey 167 (340th all time)

Adjusted Batting Wins

Smith 36.5 (tied for 89th all time)
Garvey 16.9 (tied for 342nd all time)

rats60 · #4 12-11-2017, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Seasons OPS+ from best to worst

Smith 168 162 155 151 150 143 142 137 134 129 127 127 116 100
Garvey 138 134 133 130 130 125 124 122 115 110 109 109 101

And Reggie Smith played nearly half his career as an average center fielder and half his career as an average or slightly above right fielder. Both more demanding defensively than first base (center field far more so).

So Reggie Smith was a better hitter and fielder than Steve Garvey. But somehow Garvey is the better player. Nope.

Oh. And Reggie Smith was a seven time all star who deserved to be there nine time. Garvey was a ten time all star who deserved to be there seven times. Smith won a gold glove in center field. Garvey deserved (maybe) two at first base. Smith was a three time NL champion. One time AL champion. 1 time world champion. Smith deserved the MVP in 1977 while Garvey did not deserve the one that he won.

Career OPS+:

Smith 137
Garvey: 117

Career Win Probability Added:

Smith 42.89 (56th from 1930-present)
Garvey 27.2 (144th from 1930-present)

Adjusted Batting Runs

Smith 358 (92nd all time)
Garvey 167 (340th all time)

Adjusted Batting Wins

Smith 36.5 (tied for 89th all time)
Garvey 16.9 (tied for 342nd all time)

Reggie Smith walked a lot more than Garvey. That wins at fantasy baseball, doesn't really win real games, unless you have Garvey to drive in runs.

Smith wasn't very durable. 3 seasons with 150 games. 7 seasons 140 games. 9 seasons 130 games. 10 seasons 120 games. Garvey 9 seasons with 160 games. 11 seasons with 155 games. From 1974-1986 Garvey played 155+ games every year except the strike year when he led the NL in games and 1983.

Because of that, Smith's highest hit totals were a season of 175 and 176. Garvey had 175 or more hits 10 seasons, 200 or more hits 6 times. As far as power, Smith produced 300+ total bases once, Garvey 6 times. Smith drove on 100 runs 1 time, Garvey 5 times. OPS is fine, but when it doesn't produce in the real world, it isn't the end all.

I will trust Walter Alston, Tommy Lasorda, Vin Scully and the members of veterans committee who think Garvey was better than Smith.

btcarfagno · #5 12-11-2017, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Reggie Smith walked a lot more than Garvey. That wins at fantasy baseball, doesn't really win real games, unless you have Garvey to drive in runs.

Smith wasn't very durable. 3 seasons with 150 games. 7 seasons 140 games. 9 seasons 130 games. 10 seasons 120 games. Garvey 9 seasons with 160 games. 11 seasons with 155 games. From 1974-1986 Garvey played 155+ games every year except the strike year when he led the NL in games and 1983.

Because of that, Smith's highest hit totals were a season of 175 and 176. Garvey had 175 or more hits 10 seasons, 200 or more hits 6 times. As far as power, Smith produced 300+ total bases once, Garvey 6 times. Smith drove on 100 runs 1 time, Garvey 5 times. OPS is fine, but when it doesn't produce in the real world, it isn't the end all.

I will trust Walter Alston, Tommy Lasorda, Vin Scully and the members of veterans committee who think Garvey was better than Smith.

Years with 15+ HR

Smith 14
Garvey 9

1B = power expected and required
CF = power not expected or required
RF = power expected and required

CF/RF far more difficult defensively than 1B

I see your point regarding Garvey being healthy every year and thus being able to accumulate more RBI/Hits/Extra Base Hits on an annual basis. But Smith was better for a longer period of time than was Garvey, and Smith played far more demanding positions in the field.. And yes, his plate discipline was night and day compared to Garvey.

rats60 · #6 12-11-2017, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Years with 15+ HR

Smith 14
Garvey 9

1B = power expected and required
CF = power not expected or required
RF = power expected and required

CF/RF far more difficult defensively than 1B

I see your point regarding Garvey being healthy every year and thus being able to accumulate more RBI/Hits/Extra Base Hits on an annual basis. But Smith was better for a longer period of time than was Garvey, and Smith played far more demanding positions in the field.. And yes, his plate discipline was night and day compared to Garvey.

Thanks to 7 season of 15 Hrs playing in Fenway with short fences. From 1974-80 with Smith playing in St Louis/LA and Garvey in LA, Smith 146 Hrs with a high of 32. Garvey 160 Hrs with a high of 33. Pretty similar considering Garvey was able to play more games.

As far as being more productive for longer, why does Garvey have 579 more hits 502 more total bases and 278 more RBIs?

Peter_Spaeth · #7 12-11-2017, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Thanks to 7 season of 15 Hrs playing in Fenway with short fences. From 1974-80 with Smith playing in St Louis/LA and Garvey in LA, Smith 146 Hrs with a high of 32. Garvey 160 Hrs with a high of 33. Pretty similar considering Garvey was able to play more games.

As far as being more productive for longer, why does Garvey have 579 more hits 502 more total bases and 278 more RBIs?

2 of smith's 3 best hr seasons were in la.

btcarfagno · #8 12-11-2017, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Thanks to 7 season of 15 Hrs playing in Fenway with short fences. From 1974-80 with Smith playing in St Louis/LA and Garvey in LA, Smith 146 Hrs with a high of 32. Garvey 160 Hrs with a high of 33. Pretty similar considering Garvey was able to play more games.

As far as being more productive for longer, why does Garvey have 579 more hits 502 more total bases and 278 more RBIs?

Longer as in more years as a productive hitter. Garvey had 13 better than average offensive seasons and several clunkers. Smith had 14 better than average season, one exactly average season, and no clunkers at all in seasons with 50 or more plate appearances.

The only reason Garvey had more HR's over that period is that he played in 1127 games to Smith's 826. I will grant you Garvey's ability to stay on the field. But when they were on the field, Smith was a better hitter. And again, played far more difficult defensive positions. And had far better plate discipline.

nolemmings · #9 12-11-2017, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Oh. And Morris pitched a good game in the World Series once. He was crap when called upon the following year. But that's not the narrative here.

Um, Morris won two World Series MVPs. In 1984 he threw two complete games, both wins in high-pressure, low scoring games, 3-2 and 4-2. So no, he pitched a good game in the World Series at least thrice.

Crap the following year? 21 regular season wins. ALCS he pitched a complete game and lost 4-3 to Stewart and Eckersley. Game one of the World Series he lost 3-1 to Glavine when he gave up a two-out, three run homer in the 6th inning, after 5 innings of shutout ball with 7 Ks. That's hardly crap. He got bombed in game 5 when he gave up a two-out grandslam to Lonnie Smith in the 5th of inning of what had been a 2-2 game. That's a more accurate narrative.

BradH · #10 12-11-2017, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

The argument for Ted Simmons? Pick any way you possibly want to look at it. Career stats. WAR. JAWS. Anything. Simmons is one of the top 13 (arguably top ten) catchers in the history of the game. Wouldn't you say that that is deserving on enshrinement?

I absolutely agree with this. I don't get into WAR and JAWS, and had never really considered him in with all the greats, but a few years ago I started digging into Ted's numbers and they're pretty amazing for that era. And the fact that he was a switch hitter and a master handler of pitching staffs made him even more valuable, in my opinion.

One of the most sparse areas of the Hall of Fame are catchers from the 1960s to the early 1990s. You have Bench, Fisk and Carter representing a span of about 35 years? Simmons was a great player who happened to be a quiet guy who played his career for small-market franchises.

I'm happy for Trammell and Morris and disagree with most on here -- I think they both deserve it. Trammell was overshadowed by Yount and Ripken at the time, but opposing managers of the day felt he was easily the best fielder of the group and he became a well-respected hitter.

Morris made 14 straight opening day starts - and I know OD starts don't define a Hall of Famer, but it most definitely defines an "Ace." And his peers considered him an ace for a decade and a half. That says enough for me.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
OT: No One Elected to the Hall?	Jlighter	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	120	01-10-2013 04:19 PM
Santo elected to HOF	Kenny Cole	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	54	12-06-2011 07:11 PM
WTB: 78 Molitor/Trammell RC	LanceRoten	1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T	1	03-29-2011 03:48 AM
Pat Gillick Elected	bcbgcbrcb	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	24	12-07-2010 05:33 PM
No One Elected Again	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	81	03-09-2007 06:39 PM