Opinions on the "GOAT" (Boxing)

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I always find it odd at how quickly people can say someone from the 30's was better than someone from the 70's or 80's etc. If you just look at images of athletes that span this time frame you rarely see athletes with physical attributes that compare to more modern day athletes. Whether that is from dietary changes, more vigorous exercise routines, enhanced training regimens, performance enhancing drugs, better lifestyle choices or just human evolution it is what it is.

It is hard for me to conceptually agree that even though they were participating in the same sport it is the same. While Tyson's entire career may leave him coming up short for the top five or top ten, I just don't see how he doesn't garner more respect in the discussion from his time in his prime.

I usually try to look at these all-time great discussions in the context of what the competition was like in that era and the level of dominance. The mid to late 1980s was one of the weakest eras ever for heavyweights. So many of the top fighters from that era either lacked heart, were perpetually out of shape or had drug problems.

But the reason Tyson does not get respect when compared to the all-time great heavyweights is because his resume is so thin when compared to the top heavyweights of all-time. Tyson was absolutely breathtaking to watch and a phenomenon in the 1980s, but he lost convincingly when matched against guys who were not intimidated.

One of the other reasons Tyson does not get much respect in the all-time rankings is that he was so weak mentally and folded up his tent when he could not simply intimidate an opponent into quitting before a fight even began.

[Dpeck100]

I have never commented on the greatest heavyweight of all time in this thread prior to yesterday and I don't recall ever commenting prior in any other thread.

Yes I do think Tyson's appearance is far supperior and I realize that cut muscles isn't the deciding factor in a fight.

I do think it says a lot about his conditioning.

There are plenty of great boxers in MMA and if that was their focus could be very competitive in boxing.

It's funny I am having some work done at my condo and I have on a Tyson tshirt and had him on my big screen and one of the guys asked if I boxed. Said no but love Tyson and think he doesn't get as much credit as he deserves. His comment was I think he was the best.

[D. Bergin]

Like Adam, I'd rank Tyson a Top 20 Heavyweight (maybe somewhere in the middle of the pack if I really had to think about it).

That said, I understand why Tyson is considered so collectible. He has that "it" or "wow" factor, a lot of fighters we might consider superior, don't have.

He also is a bit of an icon in his own right, and even with the many horrible things he might have done in his personal life (and in the ring), he still comes across as likable and accessible to many.

He's an incredibly self-aware guy to, which is uncommon in many high profile celebrities, athletes and politicians.

[Dpeck100]

It is definitely nice to see his stuff more sought after this point.

In 2010 what gave me the idea to look for his cards was watching his ESPN DVD The Best of Mike Tyson.

I just was blown away at what a wrecking machine he was. Boxers for good reason were legit scared to fight the guy.

I think social media is why he stuff has become more collected. Youtube has done wonders for his appeal.

He may not rank high with boxing enthusiasts but for many fans he was the pinnacle of boxing during their lifetime and that probably influences their opinion a great deal. I fall into this category.

[Arazi4442]

Tyson was a completely different fighter after the death of Cus D'Amato. I think that's one of the reasons it's so difficult to rank him all-time. Early in his career he was a knockout machine, to the point that many heavyweights fought him but wouldn't engage him for a second, even in title fights. (Similar to Foreman before the Ali fight) Watch the Mitch Green fight or "Bonecrusher" Smith. Those guys were legitimate heavyweights in the late 80s and early 90s and wanted no part of a young Tyson.

I prefer to remember that fighter and would absolutely put him in my top 5 all-time heavyweight fighters. After Cus' death, he lost a lot of discipline and started getting into all kinds of trouble outside the ring. That's the Tyson most detractors remember and pretty much ruined his legacy, IMO.

[Exhibitman]

Well I guess peak performance is one way to look at them too. Of course, that would include the Jack Dempsey who pulverized Jess Willard's face, the Joe Louis who fractured Max Schmeling's vertebrae, etc. Like I said, some very, very tough guys.

[Dpeck100]

I have to assume the gloves were less padded in the earlier days so those shots had to really hurt.

Were there a lot of blood baths back in the days?

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I just was blown away at what a wrecking machine he was. Boxers for good reason were legit scared to fight the guy.

David, have you read Tyson's autobiography from 4-5 years ago? It is an amazing read; he is brutally honest and reflective. One of the anecdotes he tells in the book is a story of walking down the street a few years ago and hearing a young girl tell her father, "Hey, there's Mike Tyson, the actor from 'The Hangover.'" It was at that moment that it dawned on Tyson that an entire generation does not have any idea that he was once the undisputed heavyweight champion.

Tyson talks about every major fight he had and the back story behind each fight. Tyson talked about the pre-fight staredown in the middle of the ring before a fight and that if a guy did not look him in the eye, Tyson knew the guy was scared. One guy Tyson mentions in particular as being scared was Frank Bruno, who Tyson said drew a cross on his chest with his finger numerous times before their first fight.

If I am not mistake, don't you work as a financial adviser? If so, you will probably appreciate this story. Tyson talked about pissing away hundreds of millions of dollars and having a forensic accountant examine his finances. One of the things the accountant found was a long forgotten IRA that Cus D'Amato had set up for Tyson shortly before D'Amato died.

The IRA had grown to $250,000 by the time Tyson's accountant found it. Upon being informed that D'Amato had set up this IRA for him, Tyson sat and cried because D'Amato was the only guy who wasn't trying to rip him off financially.

Tyson is brutally honest in the book when talking about his low self-esteem, depression, self-hatred.

[D. Bergin]

I regularly park across the street from Tyson's old house in Farmington, CT (50 Cents house now), to access a hiking trail near where I live.

The thing is gargantuan. It's no wonder Tyson went broke........and 50 Cent is following suit.................and I think at the time, it was only one of several houses he owned at the same time.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

David, have you read Tyson's autobiography from a 4-5 years ago? It is an amazing read; he is brutally honest and reflective. One of the anecdotes he tells in the book is a story of walking down the street a few years ago and hearing a young girl tell her father, "Hey, there's Mike Tyson, the actor from 'The Hangover.'" It was at that moment that it dawned on Tyson that an entire generation does not have any idea that he was once the undisputed heavyweight champion.

Tyson talks about every major fight he had and the back story behind each fight. Tyson talked about the pre-fight staredown in the middle of the ring before a fight and that if a guy did not look him in the eye, Tyson knew the guy was scared. One guy Tyson mentions in particular as being scared was Frank Bruno, who Tyson said drew a cross on his chest with his finger numerous times before their first fight.

If I am not mistake, don't you work as a financial adviser? If so, you will probably appreciate this story. Tyson talked about pissing away hundreds of millions of dollars and having a forensic accountant examine his finances. One of the things the accountant found was a long forgotten IRA that Cus D'Amato had set up for Tyson shortly before D'Amato died.

The IRA had grown to $250,000 by the time Tyson's accountant found it. Upon being informed that D'Amato had set up this IRA for him, Tyson sat and cried because D'Amato was the only guy who wasn't trying to rip him off financially.

Tyson is brutally honest in the book when talking about his low self-esteem, depression, self-hatred.

Great post.

I do have the book but haven't made it very far with it. It is a tough read early on when talking about his childhood. Your post already convinced me I need to pick it back up.

Yes I am a financial advisor and it is amazing what money can do if left untouched. It is easier said than done with the 24 hour news cycle.

Just to out of curiosity I watched some Foreman clips and he fought a bunch of out of shape guys too.

What is interesting to me about the collectability of Tyson is when I first started posting on card message boards it was because I was researching the Tyson sticker and found a post on CU talking about the little bidding war I got into with another collector in 2010 and signed up to comment. I won the sticker for $82 and immediately went and cleaned out Martin Bradford who was the only person with stickers for sale. I bought 4 more of the Panini for $15 to $25 a pop and three of the 88 ones for something similar. I started posting about it and most thought because of Tyson's personal history they had no chance to rise. Thankfully a seller from Cyprus had a hoard of the 86 Panini and I loaded up on pack fresh copies. Myself and another guy from the CU board sent in copies to PSA at the same time and his popped first and was a UK back and mine second which was the first Italian back to be graded. I was thrilled when they ran up initially and shocked when they doubled basically overnight and while they have backed off a little I still think they are under priced relative to other major rookies. Time will tell. I sold off a good number over the years and now have a 10 which I bought, 5 9's, an 8 and a UK 8 and a beater. I am waiting to buy a UK 10 because it isn't the rookie and overtime the market is more broadly realizing it. I get emails from random people asking to buy one of my copies but they are staying in my collection.

[Exhibitman]

Nice story on the Panini Tysons. If I'd cleaned house on them back in the day I'd probably be more of a booster too. I didn't get on that train but I am hoping that Anthony Joshua pans out (salted away some 2012 Panini Adrenalyn when the pickings were easy).

Paninis are under-respected generally. If you're trying for a HOF collection as I am and you want career-issued cards I think you more or less have to have several Paninis in there: 1973 Duran, Foreman 1982 Hagler 1986 Tyson 1988 Chavez. There are quite a few other HOFers with cards and/or RCs in the sets, but these are really the biggest names' earliest cards. What I find curious is the lack of respect for them relative to other sets like the Mira Tuttosport. Man are those cards pricey by comparison. I have a middle of the road specimen in my type cards because I don't want to pay up to improve it. I also don't think the market prices in the Panini Valida backs accordingly.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I am waiting to buy a UK 10 because it isn't the rookie and overtime the market is more broadly realizing it.

So only the Italian back is his RC and not the UK version? Weren't they released the same year? Please explain. Thanks.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Great post.

I do have the book but haven't made it very far with it. It is a tough read early on when talking about his childhood. Your post already convinced me I need to pick it back up.

Yes I am a financial advisor and it is amazing what money can do if left untouched. It is easier said than done with the 24 hour news cycle.

Just to out of curiosity I watched some Foreman clips and he fought a bunch of out of shape guys too.

What is interesting to me about the collectability of Tyson is when I first started posting on card message boards it was because I was researching the Tyson sticker and found a post on CU talking about the little bidding war I got into with another collector in 2010 and signed up to comment. I won the sticker for $82 and immediately went and cleaned out Martin Bradford who was the only person with stickers for sale. I bought 4 more of the Panini for $15 to $25 a pop and three of the 88 ones for something similar. I started posting about it and most thought because of Tyson's personal history they had no chance to rise. Thankfully a seller from Cyprus had a hoard of the 86 Panini and I loaded up on pack fresh copies. Myself and another guy from the CU board sent in copies to PSA at the same time and his popped first and was a UK back and mine second which was the first Italian back to be graded. I was thrilled when they ran up initially and shocked when they doubled basically overnight and while they have backed off a little I still think they are under priced relative to other major rookies. Time will tell. I sold off a good number over the years and now have a 10 which I bought, 5 9's, an 8 and a UK 8 and a beater. I am waiting to buy a UK 10 because it isn't the rookie and overtime the market is more broadly realizing it. I get emails from random people asking to buy one of my copies but they are staying in my collection.

By all means, dive back into the Tyson book. It is hard to put down once he turns pro and gives background on what so many of his opponents were like outside the ring and the craziness that was going on in Tyson's life.

I don't want to give too much away, because it is such an amazing read. But Tyson said Larry Holmes told him that he (Tyson) is not a pimple on Holmes' ass and that Holmes was the real legend. Holmes further told Tyson that he will eventually destroy himself, which Tyson conceded was correct.

Tyson talked about how much it pissed him off to hear everyone talk about what a great guy Evander Holyfield was because he would constantly "talk that Jesus shit." Meanwhile, Holyfield would constantly hit on the break and rabbit punch. As I was reading the book, I would often put it down and go watch YouTube clips to see what Tyson was talking about regarding a particular fight.

Tyson is completely up front in stating that he was an arrogant asshole when he was 21 years old. One of the things he really feels bad about now was Pinklon Thomas sticking his hand out to shake Tyson's hand at the pre-fight press conference. Tyson responded by telling Thomas that he should get down on his knees and perform a sex act just for having the chance to share a ring with Tyson.

The book is very r-rated.

One other quick anecdote is that Tyson talks about Marvis Frazier (famously destroyed in 30 seconds by Tyson) being way too nice a guy to be involved in a scummy sport like boxing. Tyson wrote that Marvis Frazier really didn't want to box, but was only doing so to try and make his father proud.

Yes, Foreman did fight some stiffs. But my post was largely in the context that he was viewed as an unbeatable killing machine by the time he fought Ali in Zaire. Ali was viewed as being old and having no shot at the guy who had completely destroyed Joe Frazier to win the title.