some more red meat for all the N54 moralists

[calvindog]

Again, I didn't read this whole thread because I was too busy living but this is all over $3700???

I spoke to Zach after this occurred and I can't imagine not just giving the guy his money or cards back. We've all had the occasional bad luck with a deal and sometimes you have to just suck it up and give back the money -- regardless of what some lawyer tells you to do. Some of us give the money back, and some of us here will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid having to do the right thing if it means costing them a few bucks. I can't imagine this annoyance was worth $3700 to anyone. $3700, 15K or whatever the number is not worth it for people to think you're a hobby scumbag.

Mike and Zach have always been good guys in my book and their actions here confirm this.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Again, I didn't read this whole thread because I was too busy living but this is all over $3700???

I spoke to Zach after this occurred and I can't imagine not just giving the guy his money or cards back. We've all had the occasional bad luck with a deal and sometimes you have to just suck it up and give back the money -- regardless of what some lawyer tells you to do. Some of us give the money back, and some of us here will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid having to do the right thing if it means costing them a few bucks. I can't imagine this annoyance was worth $3700 to anyone. $3700, 15K or whatever the number is not worth it for people to think you're a hobby scumbag.

Mike and Zach have always been good guys in my book and their actions here confirm this.

Well said Jeff

[rhettyeakley]

C’mon guys let’s get this thing sorted out!

Mike Peich is one of the greatest men I have met in this hobby and his passion is second to none, just one of the most pleasant guys I have had the pleasure of dealing with! Obviously, at this point he is out everything and it shouldn’t be that way!

Zach is also one of my favorite people and the passion that he has had given his age is actually pretty inspiring and gives me great hope for the future! I can’t imagine the feeling of betrayal and surprise that Zach was faced with seeing his own prized collection in someone else’s display case. To me that would be heartbreaking, then to find out it was your own brother that did this is such a violation!

Chris Buckler and his wife I count as friends and I always look forward to my interactions with them every National, he is one of my favorite dealers to deal with and he has helped me out on several deals, often times selling me something I think he may have gotten more money for had he so desired but he was willing to sell to me because he is genuinely a nice guy.

I can honestly see the situation from all 3 perspectives and feel for each of the 3 parties involved!

All that being said... let’s get a solution to this problem. Unfortunately someone or a combination of somebodies will be taking a financial hit. But let’s figure it out, if there is any way that I can help in any way I would be more than happy to do so as this whole situation stinks and IMO there is no clear cut “bad guy” amongst those listed above.

[griffon512]

i made what i think was a good sale at the westchester show today. maybe karma had a part to play, maybe it didn't. in the chance it did, i'd like to repay or pay forward some portion of it in what i think is a worthy pursuit. mike, it sounds like you've had a shit time of it recently and it is undeserved given the positive interactions people have had with you.

in that context mike i'd like to send you $75 as a small fraction of the restitution you ultimately deserve of $3,700 plus the additional money you spent acquiring the cards to give back to zach. an honorable act deserves an honorable response...there's not enough instances of this happening and this time i can have some impact on the outcome. hopefully others will follow.

mike, please let me know what paypal address to send the money to and i will send it tonight. if you don't have paypal, please list your street address and i will send you a check. tim, if mike isn't like to read the remainder of this thread please pass along his contact info if you feel it appropriate.

regards, james

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by griffon512

i made what i think was a good sale at the westchester show today. maybe karma had a part to play, maybe it didn't. in the chance it did, i'd like to repay or pay forward some portion of it in what i think is a worthy pursuit. mike, it sounds like you've had a shit time of it recently and it is undeserved given the positive interactions people have had with you.

in that context mike i'd like to send you $75 as a small fraction of the restitution you ultimately deserve of $3,700 plus the additional money you spent acquiring the cards to give back to zach. an honorable act deserves an honorable response...there's not enough instances of this happening and this time i can have some impact on the outcome. hopefully others will follow.

mike, please let me know what paypal address to send the money to and i will send it tonight. if you don't have paypal, please list your street address and i will send you a check. tim, if mike isn't like to read the remainder of this thread please pass along his contact info if you feel it appropriate.

regards, james

Awesome gesture...very nice bud. I'm not sure Mike would take it, but its an awesome gesture James.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not to fault James in any way but Chris should be making the first move here, then we can see where things end up. I would give him some time first.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not to fault James in any way but Chris should be making the first move here, then we can see where things end up. I would give him some time first.

peter, i understand where you are coming from but i disagree on chris making the first move. chris had plenty of opportunity to make the first move. he didn't. i'm not critical of chris' decision. this is a legal clusterfuck due to the attorney cost vs. potential remediation dollar amount issue, along with how time consuming it would be to pursue a legal remedy. everyone down the chain in this transaction is worse off currently in some form -- whether it be business reputation or financially -- but it is likely that none of these people had malicious intent.

this is an ideal situation where a third party (or parties if others choose to chip in) can step in and pursue an ethical remedy where a legal remedy likely falls short.

if out of pressure from this thread chris revisits the idea of paying for some of mike's cost my actions do not preclude him from doing so, but i do not think that chris should feel that obligation on ethical grounds.

[timn1]

As mentioned, Mike currently has his hands full with family stuff, plus he was never trying to make this a big public stink, so he may not post much more on it anytime soon. Though he can always correct me, I'm fairly sure he is not interested in suing anyone in any of the 50 states. He knows the amount involved would not be worth the hassles. However, I don't agree with Jeff's suggestion about how the issue is too trivial to be worth having this discussion. Principle is involved.

Here we have people who don't even know Mike offering to defray some of his loss, but the two others directly involved, Chris and Zach, who benefitted from the events and then let Mike do all the dirty work and absorb all the financial loss for eighteen months, should step up and be honorable men about this, and offer to do something.

For those offering money, which is extremely kind of them, I will let Mike tell you whether he wants to accept it. But as his closest friend, I am certain that the lost money has upset him less than the disappointment of seeing two people he also considered hobby friends, so completely fail to hold up their obligation to deal fairly with him when all he wanted was to make a bad situation better.

Tim

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not to fault James in any way but Chris should be making the first move here, then we can see where things end up. I would give him some time first.

[griffon512]

my concern is he won't take it from myself and potentially others. i hope it's not seen as an act of charity. it isn't. it's an attempt to remediate a problem when at least a partial solution is readily available, and ultimately would make me feel better for pursuing it.