OT: Hall of Fame - Edgar Martinez?

the 'stache · #1 01-25-2018, 05:36 AM

Martinez is a Hall of Famer. Toss out his last season, when he was 41, and he's got a career 151 OPS +.

This article from Ryan Spaeder of The Sporting News makes the case quite well.

Here are some numbers to mull over:

And I thought this was pretty eye opening:

clydepepper · #2 01-25-2018, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Martinez is a Hall of Famer. Toss out his last season, when he was 41, and he's got a career 151 OPS +.

This article from Ryan Spaeder of The Sporting News makes the case quite well.

Here are some numbers to mull over:

And I thought this was pretty eye opening:

Nice Cherry-Picking, Bill.

When I look at just his stats, however, I see a DH with less than 2300 hits and only 309 HRs...in the time he played, IMO, that doesn't add up to HOF, just a tier and a tear below. Being in the top TWO Percent is still pretty damn good!

Robextend · #3 01-25-2018, 08:53 AM

I don't think Hoffman had a HOF worthy career, however when you look at Bruce Sutter being in, it's hard to argue. I personally thought Billy Wagner was the more dominant closer for quite a few years...just didn't accumulate the numbers that Hoffman did.

btcarfagno · #4 01-25-2018, 09:03 AM

When I look at Edgar Martinez stats, I see someone who, if he had been a shitty fielder, would likely deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame. My problem with potentially voting for him, however, is that, had he been forced to play in the field as well as hit over the years, his offensive stats would likely not have been as good as they were. Are his offensive stats so good that a bit of a dip in them would retain their Hall Of Fame worthiness? I'm not so sure.

Robextend · #5 01-25-2018, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

When I look at Edgar Martinez stats, I see someone who, if he had been a shitty fielder, would likely deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame. My problem with potentially voting for him, however, is that, had he been forced to play in the field as well as hit over the years, his offensive stats would likely not have been as good as they were. Are his offensive stats so good that a bit of a dip in them would retain their Hall Of Fame worthiness? I'm not so sure.

Agreed. Also Coors field aside, how can you put Edgar in without Larry Walker? Walker had almost identical numbers + an MVP and 7 gold gloves.

packs · #6 01-25-2018, 09:46 AM

I think Walker is a HOFer too. But I don't see what defense has to do with anything. Pitchers don't get overlooked for being terrible hitters so I really don't understand this stance where Edgar is less deserving for not playing the field. He was there to hit and no one was better than he was.

Also all this talk about defense has me wondering why none of you guys are out on a limb for Vizquel. He was one of the greatest fielding shortstops of all time and only got a little more than a third of the vote.

rats60 · #7 01-25-2018, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I think Walker is a HOFer too. But I don't see what defense has to do with anything. Pitchers don't get overlooked for being terrible hitters so I really don't understand this stance where Edgar is less deserving for not playing the field. He was there to hit and no one was better than he was.

Also all this talk about defense has me wondering why none of you guys are out on a limb for Vizquel. He was one of the greatest fielding shortstops of all time and only got a little more than a third of the vote.

Vizquel had a high fielding percentage, but he was average defensively. Vizquel averaged 4.62 plays per game. The league average was 4.61. Because of his average range, he is 18th in TZR.

timn1 · #8 01-25-2018, 09:48 AM

That's a pretty big aside!

Walker:
Home .348 .431 .637
Away .278 .370 .495

Martinez
Home .311 .423 .517
Away .312 .412 .514

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robextend

Agreed. Also Coors field aside, how can you put Edgar in without Larry Walker? Walker had almost identical numbers + an MVP and 7 gold gloves.

Baseball Rarities · #9 01-25-2018, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timn1

That's a pretty big aside!

Walker:
Home .348 .431 .637
Away .278 .370 .495

Martinez
Home .311 .423 .517
Away .312 .412 .514

I agree that this is hard to overlook. I think that in Walker's case it is fair to judge him more on is away stats, which I do not think are HOF worthy.

timn1 · #10 01-25-2018, 09:46 AM

I think to fetishize the "5-tool player" when arguing about the HOF is a bit silly. Players who are genuinely outstanding in all 5 tools come along about once in a generation (Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio, Mantle, Mays, Griffey Jr, Trout, maybe a few others). And even then, about half the 5-toolers lose their speed by age 30....

Except for those few, almost all players, even the greatest, are MLB average or worse at one or more of these skills. Collins didn't hit for power, Clemente didn't walk (which is one of the REAL 5 tools), Sisler couldn't walk or throw, Gehrig had legs like tree trunks, Ripken couldn't run if his pants were on fire but at least he fielded his position well, which the greatest hitter of all time (or at least second greatest) couldn't be bothered to do. Etc. etc.

If you limited the HOF to true 5-tool players you would have about 10 guys in there (which is what some people around here seem to want).

Like other sports and fields of achievement, baseball has become more ever specialized as it matures. The DH has been around for almost half a century, and the relief ace/closer even longer. If the rules permit that type of specialist player, then to exclude the best of them from the HOF would make the HOF not a fair representation of the game as it's played.

Example: Edgar Martinez played almost 600 games in the field. He wasn't very good at third base but like a lot of 3B, if the DH hadn't existed he would have been moved to 1B and would have been perfectly adequate, like a hundred other pure hitters who wound up at 1B. To penalize him because the DH does exist in the rules is ridiculous.

Check out retrosheet.org. Their WAR-style stat is called BFW. Edgar has a 45.4 career BFW, which is exactly the same as Griffey Jr and higher than about 3/4 of the players in the HOF. Since 2000 only four non-pitchers with a higher BFW have been elected: Boggs, Thomas, Bagwell, and Henderson.

I hope Edgar will get in next year.

darwinbulldog · #11 01-25-2018, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Nice Cherry-Picking, Bill.

When I look at just his stats, however, I see a DH with less than 2300 hits and only 309 HRs...in the time he played, IMO, that doesn't add up to HOF, just a tier and a tear below. Being in the top TWO Percent is still pretty damn good!

People think cherry-picking is so bad, but I can point to several examples where it was no big deal.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 01-25-2018, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Nice Cherry-Picking, Bill.

When I look at just his stats, however, I see a DH with less than 2300 hits and only 309 HRs...in the time he played, IMO, that doesn't add up to HOF, just a tier and a tear below. Being in the top TWO Percent is still pretty damn good!

He didn't really play a full season until he was 27, I wonder why. With a few more early years his career numbers would be a lot higher.

SteveMitchell · #13 01-25-2018, 01:11 PM

Bill Gregory posted some impressive names and their numbers (alongside Edgar's) and received a "cherry-picking" award; possibly other knocks, too, as I have not read much beyond Bill's post. When mentioning some of the all-time, all-time greats in the same breath as Edgar Martinez is considered "cherry-picking", I say: Pick away! Edgar has been criticized for being a DH. Let's just add that he had no speed, batted right-handed and hardly ever beat out a hit. I like the company in which Bill (and Edgar's stats) place him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Martinez is a Hall of Famer. Toss out his last season, when he was 41, and he's got a career 151 OPS +.

This article from Ryan Spaeder of The Sporting News makes the case quite well.

Here are some numbers to mull over:

And I thought this was pretty eye opening:

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