Importance of Provenance

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by drcy

I cataloged a bunch of CDVs that belonged to Charles Dickens. I don't know about you guys, but I thought that pretty cool, even though I didn't like having to read his 900 page novels in English class.

I am one-third of the way through 'David Copperfield' right now. I never read it before. Barnes and Nobles had this large group of classic books for $5.00 in store. I bought quite a few. I have read 'Great Expectations', 'A Tale of Two Cities', 'The Art of War', 'Siddartha', 'The Origin of Species' and 'The Count of Monte Cristo' so far this year. Next up is 'The Brothers Karamazov' or 'Bleak House' each 800 pages or so. The toughest read was 'The Origin of Species'.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Michael B

I am one-third of the way through 'David Copperfield' right now. I never read it before. Barnes and Nobles had this large group of classic books for $5.00 in store. I bought quite a few. I have read 'Great Expectations', 'A Tale of Two Cities', 'The Art of War', 'Siddartha', 'The Origin of Species' and 'The Count of Monte Cristo' so far this year. Next up is 'The Brothers Karamazov' or 'Bleak House' each 800 pages or so. The toughest read was 'The Origin of Species'.

The Brothers Karamazov is a great book. Dostoyevski was my favorite author, back when I used to read. The length never bothered me. Michener, on the other hand, ugh.

[GasHouseGang]

I wouldn't necessarily pay extra for a card with provenance, but I got these two for what you would normally pay for the card in this grade.

[brian1961]

Lots of answers with various lines of thought.

As someone who personally knew Mr. Lionel Carter, I would most assuredly pay more for a card from his personal collection. Not a lot more, but there were some of Mr. Carter's cards that were WOW. Three examples come to mind----an SGC 98 '34 Goudey Hank Greenberg, an SGC 96 '51 Bowman Mickey Mantle, and an SGC 84 '53 Glendale Franks Art Houtteman. Being from Mr. Carter's personal collection was truly icing on the cake. He was an absolute fanatic about condition during his years of collecting, when the far majority of his fellow collectors were simply content just having the card, regardless of its condition.

For the vast majority of cards, I am with the collector who insists he does not care in the least.

However, for the creme of the creme, provenance spells authenticity, genuineness, and allure to the point of DEEP, GOTTA HAVE IT DESIRABILITY. Now, let me say when I think of provenance, I refer to the entire history of the item---the promotion from whence it came, how challenging it was for kids to get a hold of one during the brief window of opportunity at the time, and if possible, who owned the piece along the way.

Taken collectively, you build either an appealing sea story, or a "SO WHAT!" A lot of people don't get into good sea stories, but then they might have an infantile attention span, and the understanding and appreciation for the finer things of a crum bum. That's perfectly fine; they have their own highly desirable cards and sets, and it means less competition for the few who recognize the merits and beauty of the profoundly rare.

To sweep all that precious information and background story aside as hogwash is pure idiocy. For some highly desirable cards and items that could command boo coo from an auction dogfight or private sale, provenance is essential if not downright mandatory.

Most of you probably are aware of how important provenance is to the fine art world, or collector car world, rare gems, or rare coins and stamps. Perhaps you think for our world of sports cards, it isn't worth the trouble. Again, for most trading cards, and cars, coins, stamps, and so on, they are merely E Pluribus Unum.

For the creme of the creme, I want and need the provenance. ---Brian Powell

[drcy]

I look at the topic of provenance and cards differently. I bet all here would be, at the least, hesitant to buy a mint card from a well-known card doctor, or that can be traced to a well-known card doctor. This is an example of assessing and purchasing cards using provenance, and has nothing to with a card having once been by Mickey Mantle or being traced to its original owner. When someone says the the provenance of cards makes no matter to them, I say "Sure it does."

When you get into more esoteric baseball memorabilia-- such as a early 1905 Yale team trophy ball or unique proof--, then where it came from, such as a well respected and honest seller who knows his stuff, obviously becomes more important, because you're dealing with identity and authenticity. And most people know that when you turn to resell it, that it was obtained from a respected dealer who knows his stuff is an important and sometimes even essential selling point.

[Snapolit1]

If I can buy the same card at 25% less, I'll happily pass on the "Lionel Carter" or anyone else for that matter owned this card. If you knew the guy, sure. A way to pay homage to a nice guy. But I could care less if the card was owned by Lionel Carter, Lionel Hampton or Lionel Schmutz.

[packs]

People keep bringing up art. If we're talking about the provenance behind pre-war cards like a T206, there were so many of them issued it doesn't matter who owned an individual copy. Provenance matters in art because there is only one and paintings are a medium that can be copied by any skilled painter. So proving you have the original is important. That's not the case with a baseball card. There are cards that there are only one known copy of, but without looking it up, can anyone name the person who owned the Allegheny set? It was part of the Copeland collection, but who owned it before Copeland? Copeland's name is the only one I ever see mentioned in write ups. Copeland was not the original owner though.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Griffins

Have to be careful, I heard about a guy that bought the wrong Jon Voights car. Turned out to belong to a dentist, not the actor.

Best deadpan answer in a long time. Love the reference.

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If I can buy the same card at 25% less, I'll happily pass on the "Lionel Carter" or anyone else for that matter owned this card. If you knew the guy, sure. A way to pay homage to a nice guy. But I could care less if the card was owned by Lionel Carter, Lionel Hampton or Lionel Schmutz.

What about Lionel Richie? You wouldn't pay extra for a card that he used to own?