Ashamed - Topps T206 Buy Back Fraud

Rhotchkiss · #1 02-07-2018, 07:56 AM

Seems the general consensus (of at least those who have posted here) is that if the card sits in a slab, then we are ethically exonerated from disclosing anything we know and/or suspect about the card -- everything shifts to the TPG. As sad as that is, I respect that as the general state of things. That said, its not for me.

The situation I posted about earlier in this thread is scenario #4 of Peter's hypotheticals. I bought the card for $13k+, from a "reputable" broker and self-acclaimed T206 expert, after the card sold in a second-rate auction for mid $11k. It sat in a BVG 7 flip and from pictures the card looked gorgeous, and I took comfort in the fact that it was sold by one auction house and now being offered by a bigger-time broker (admittedly, the fact that it was in a BVG flip did bother me however). Anyway, the card arrived, and although it looked a tad "short" to me (but T206s can be that way), it truly is an amazing looking card. I promptly took it to SGC at the Chantilly show to get crossed over. I asked for a minimum grade of SGC 80. When I went to pick it up in person, the guy told me he was sorry but that they could not give it the minimum grade I wanted. I was immediately alarmed, but I did not ask, because I didnt want to hear that card had been tampered with, so I took it home and hoped that maybe SGC just got it wrong. I started to hate the card.

Over the next year I took it with me to card shows to show off and to passively get a consensus. Everyone hated that it was in a BVG flip and I heard from many people, including two major auction houses, that while it is a very pretty card, "it had to remain in its current flip." I took all that as code for :this card has been trimmed." I never tried to cross it over because, again, for me ignorance was bliss ethically, and while I may have sniffed the notion of selling or trading it, I never got aggressive because I just did not feel comfortable. In full disclosure, never once did anyone other than two friends tell me they thought it was trimmed and I never had a TPG tell me that and I do not know for certain that it was trimmed; but of course there are plenty of ways to imply that and I heard them all, and logic tells you something is wrong when a card of that caliber is sold at a lesser AH and was sold in a BVG flip and not crossed over by the AH or the big broker before he tried to resell it.

Anyway, finally, a few weeks ago, I emailed the broker (who I hadnt talked to or done a deal with since I bought this card) and offered the card back to him for a discount (this is a card that by all rights has gone up substantially since I bought it). He accepted, he paid me promptly, I sent the card to him, and its all over.

In those months before I determined to get rid of the card to the broker, I considered just listing it on ebay, or consigning it to a lesser auction house, etc., but the thought of someone paying big money for a card that was likely trimmed but sitting in a 7 case, was too much for me and I didnt want to get mixed up any fallout that could occur -- life is just too short.

I firmly believe that if you know something about the card, like its been submitted before or elsewhere and came back a different grade, or you know a card has been cracked out, washed/mark erased etc and resubmitted, and you do not disclose it, then you are a piece of shit and I have no interest in ever doing business with you.

Ryan Hotchkiss

vintagetoppsguy · #2 02-07-2018, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Seems the general consensus (of at least those who have posted here) is that if the card sits in a slab, then we are ethically exonerated from disclosing anything we know and/or suspect about the card -- everything shifts to the TPG. As sad as that is, I respect that as the general state of things. That said, its not for me.

The situation I posted about earlier in this thread is scenario #4 of Peter's hypotheticals. I bought the card for $13k+, from a "reputable" broker and self-acclaimed T206 expert, after the card sold in a second-rate auction for mid $11k. It sat in a BVG 7 flip and from pictures the card looked gorgeous, and I took comfort in the fact that it was sold by one auction house and now being offered by a bigger-time broker (admittedly, the fact that it was in a BVG flip did bother me however). Anyway, the card arrived, and although it looked a tad "short" to me (but T206s can be that way), it truly is an amazing looking card. I promptly took it to SGC at the Chantilly show to get crossed over. I asked for a minimum grade of SGC 80. When I went to pick it up in person, the guy told me he was sorry but that they could not give it the minimum grade I wanted. I was immediately alarmed, but I did not ask, because I didnt want to hear that card had been tampered with, so I took it home and hoped that maybe SGC just got it wrong. I started to hate the card.

Over the next year I took it with me to card shows to show off and to passively get a consensus. Everyone hated that it was in a BVG flip and I heard from many people, including two major auction houses, that while it is a very pretty card, "it had to remain in its current flip." I took all that as code for :this card has been trimmed." I never tried to cross it over because, again, for me ignorance was bliss ethically, and while I may have sniffed the notion of selling or trading it, I never got aggressive because I just did not feel comfortable. In full disclosure, never once did anyone other than two friends tell me they thought it was trimmed and I never had a TPG tell me that and I do not know for certain that it was trimmed; but of course there are plenty of ways to imply that and I heard them all, and logic tells you something is wrong when a card of that caliber is sold at a lesser AH and was sold in a BVG flip and not crossed over by the AH or the big broker before he tried to resell it.

Anyway, finally, a few weeks ago, I emailed the broker (who I hadnt talked to or done a deal with since I bought this card) and offered the card back to him for a discount (this is a card that by all rights has gone up substantially since I bought it). He accepted, he paid me promptly, I sent the card to him, and its all over.

In those months before I determined to get rid of the card to the broker, I considered just listing it on ebay, or consigning it to a lesser auction house, etc., but the thought of someone paying big money for a card that was likely trimmed but sitting in a 7 case, was too much for me and I didnt want to get mixed up any fallout that could occur -- life is just too short.

I firmly believe that if you know something about the card, like its been submitted before or elsewhere and came back a different grade, or you know a card has been cracked out, washed/mark erased etc and resubmitted, and you do not disclose it, then you are a piece of shit and I have no interest in ever doing business with you.

Ryan Hotchkiss

You seem to put a lot of blame on the broker. You can say otherwise, but your choice of words indicates that you do. Why is it his fault? Did he have the card graded or did he buy it already graded? And just because it was short doesn't mean it was trimmed. SGC didn't have the advantage of looking at the raw card as BVG did. Maybe it was just cut short and SGC was cautious by not crossing it over?

Peter_Spaeth · #3 02-07-2018, 11:35 AM

One wonders what percentage of significant submissions these days are bumps/crackouts/crossovers.

Rhotchkiss · #4 02-07-2018, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You seem to put a lot of blame on the broker. You can say otherwise, but your choice of words indicates that you do. Why is it his fault? Did he have the card graded or did he buy it already graded? And just because it was short doesn't mean it was trimmed. SGC didn't have the advantage of looking at the raw card as BVG did. Maybe it was just cut short and SGC was cautious by not crossing it over?

In retrospect there is no doubt in my mind the broker knew what he was doing. 100%. (and bc my post is not about the broker, my prior post did not mention the assurances/explanations he gave me of the card, why it was sold in the auction it was sold in, why it was in a BVG flip, why he did not try to cross it over, and why he was reselling it so fast and for a relatively small profit; believe me, I had many questions and I dont just drop that kind of money without getting comfortable). But that is his right. Look, for all I know, everything he told me was correct (although I don't believe that to be the case).

The blame is on me 100%. I could have said no thanks. No gun was to my head. I made the decision to buy the card and I was under no duress or compulsion - in fact I was excited. The point of my post is not to blame someone, but rather to state my opinion that I believe that its on me to disclose something negative I know about the card if/when I ever go to sell or trade it. I didnt want to do that in this case, so instead I unwound the deal at a loss. That's me. Each to their own.

Pat R · #5 11-07-2020, 07:25 AM

I was wondering how long it would be before someone started putting fakes
in these. The seller kind of skirts around the fact that it's a fake.

Cobb buyback fake.jpg
Cobb buyback fake back.jpg

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...gAAOSwZzNfphkZ

oldeboo · #6 11-07-2020, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

I was wondering how long it would be before someone started putting fakes
in these. The seller kind of skirts around the fact that it's a fake.

Ha Yeah, saw that in my searches. Could send it to PSA and they would probably grade it a 9 with those corners.

swarmee · #7 11-07-2020, 07:55 AM

Marked "AS-IS", no returns, and Unknown for Original/Replica. Still wouldn't get them out of an INAD case because they list it as a 1909-1911 card. I reported it for being counterfeit. Enough reports and they'll take it down.

But yes, it's a less obvious reprint/counterfeit than the last two outed in PSA slabs...

Rich Klein · #8 11-07-2020, 08:40 AM

IIRC: The issue with grading any of these cards is you are grading the modern card NOT the card within the holder.

We're going to assume for a second that all the cards in those holders are what they are supposed to be. (So this does not apply to the Cobb example a couple of posts ago)

So, if you have a "9" because the card was issued in 2002 in that way and the modern card looks good it is a "9"

The issue is, the card inside may be a 3 or a 4 but you are grading the modern card. I don't think any of the grading companies yet have devised a way to break that down, simply because -- well to properly grade the card WITHIN the holder you kind of, sort of, have to break it out of the holder and then re-insert it and what if something goes wrong during that process.

So. I don't know the answer but an 9 may be a legit 9 but not for what is inside. Also thankfully this process is not very common but if it ever became more common, then all the TPG's would have to think carefully about what to do.

Rich

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