Hey, pennant guys

[bocca001]

So, as you can tell from Mike's post, it looks like I have the "real" Seals pennant from his book. But, after looking it over closely with a black light, it is clear that this real pennant isn't real old (the white threads light up). I reached out to seattlerainers and he told me that he thinks the pennant may have been produced in the 1990s, in conjunction with the "Runs, Hits, and and Era" museum exhibit. I'd be curious to know if anyone has ever seen another (or if I have the market cornered).

So, that hurts a bit, as I know I paid a couple hundred for this about 6 years ago. This was one of the first pennants I picked up when I got back into collecting. If I knew then what I know now, I would have realized that the price was really too low if it was a vintage PCL pennant (especially Seals). So it goes.

I am curious to know if any of you have used a black light on your pennants. If you have, what is the oldest pennant with white threads that "light up"?

The good news is that everything on eBay has been on sale on lately, even when buyers accept best offers (thanks, Rob). So I've attached a picture of my "on sale" purchases to end this on a happy note.

[seattlerainiers]

As Marc said, I communicated with him via private message about this pennant. I got more specific information yesterday over lunch with Jerry Cohen of Ebbets Field Flannels.

This Seals pennant was produced by "Cooperstown Co" in the 1990s. Jerry knows the owner of the company, and said that this fellow had high hopes for selling these commercially at the time of production, but that it wasn't successful.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by seattlerainiers

As Marc said, I communicated with him via private message about this pennant. I got more specific information yesterday over lunch with Jerry Cohen of Ebbets Field Flannels.

This Seals pennant was produced by "Cooperstown Co" in the 1990s. Jerry knows the owner of the company, and said that this fellow had high hopes for selling these commercially at the time of production, but that it wasn't successful.

Thanks for sealing the deal on this one! It just never felt right, in terms of its construction and obvious pristine condition. But before we "close the book" on it, I have a final question...

Many/most of these repro pennants are based on actual vintage pennant designs. This holds true for both Cooperstown and Mitchell & Ness. A few are completely "conjured up" designs, but the vast majority are relatively faithful copies of the real thing.

So.... Was this Seals Pennant design based on an actual Teens Oversized Pennant? Or is it just a fantasy creation that the artist/designer concocted on his/her own? In other words.... Has anyone ever seen a real one?

[bocca001]

I'll defer to PCL experts about whether a real pre-war pennant like this might exist, but everything I found suggested probably not. The letter style on the pennant seems to be a mishmash of 1938-1944 styles, with colors and letter style from 1938/1939 and the white underneath the letters from 1944 (although the Seals letters appear more red than Orange in 1944). They also had a hat with the Seal on it from about 1938-1940, which ties in with the two seal figures on the pennant.

I still think it is strange that there are two different versions of this pennant. I do know that the ebay Seals pennant looks much newer than the one I own, and that (although the condition is too strong for something super old) mine looks older than other things I own from the 1990s. But the black light doesn't lie. It just can't be that old. Still, the ebay one seems like a copy of the one I have.

I am curious if anyone has taken a black light to some of their 1950s - 1970s pennants. I found paint/print that would light up, but rarely the stitching.

[seattlerainiers]

[QUOTE=bocca001;1765132]I'll defer to PCL experts about whether a real pre-war pennant like this might exist, but everything I found suggested probably not. The letter style on the pennant seems to be a mishmash of 1938-1944 styles, with colors and letter style from 1938/1939 and the white underneath the letters from 1944 (although the Seals letters appear more red than Orange in 1944). They also had a hat with the Seal on it from about 1938-1940, which ties in with the two seal figures on the pennant.

I think that Marc is correct ^

I believe that Cooperstown conjured the design of that pennant, vs. reproducing an original. I'd love to be wrong, but I doubt it.

The teens PCL pennants that I am aware of include two different magnificent SF Seals Opening Day pennants that are tucked away in an advanced PCL collection, two of the Oakland Oaks pennant shown here, and a 1914 Sacramento Wolves pennant.

Also pictured are a few of my Seals pennants. The 1945 Seals pennant appears to have been hand made, although period. The 1949 Japan tour pennants are very high quality and were each personalized with the name of the Seals player that they were made for, making all surviving examples "one of a kind".

[perezfan]

WOW.... Some killer pennants. Especially that early Oakland Oaks.

I had seen the Red Seals Pennant (which turns up sporadically), but have never seen those others. Great stuff!

[bocca001]

Yes... WOW. Those are great to see. Thanks!

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by bocca001

So, as you can tell from Mike's post, it looks like I have the "real" Seals pennant from his book. But, after looking it over closely with a black light, it is clear that this real pennant isn't real old (the white threads light up). I reached out to seattlerainers and he told me that he thinks the pennant may have been produced in the 1990s, in conjunction with the "Runs, Hits, and and Era" museum exhibit. I'd be curious to know if anyone has ever seen another (or if I have the market cornered).

So, that hurts a bit, as I know I paid a couple hundred for this about 6 years ago. This was one of the first pennants I picked up when I got back into collecting. If I knew then what I know now, I would have realized that the price was really too low if it was a vintage PCL pennant (especially Seals). So it goes.

I am curious to know if any of you have used a black light on your pennants. If you have, what is the oldest pennant with white threads that "light up"?

The good news is that everything on eBay has been on sale on lately, even when buyers accept best offers (thanks, Rob). So I've attached a picture of my "on sale" purchases to end this on a happy note.

Sorry it didn't turn out to be what you'd hoped, but thank you for starting the discussion about your pennant -- and others like it. It's been interesting and informative.

[Fballguy]

That's a bummer. But we've all likely been there. I know I have. Live and learn. When it comes to this hobby, there's A LOT to learn.

On the bright side..You picked up some nice pennants. Love that Oilers.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I am curious to know if any of you have used a black light on your pennants. If you have, what is the oldest pennant with white threads that "light up"?

The good news is that everything on eBay has been on sale on lately, even when buyers accept best offers (thanks, Rob). So I've attached a picture of my "on sale" purchases to end this on a happy note.

Great pickups, Marc!

I have never used or heard of the black light test. What is it that then test proves or suggests?

[bocca001]

It is my understanding that only cloth/paper made after about WWII will "light up" under a black light. These materials sort of glow under the light, due to artificial whiteners/brighteners. It can be especially apparent in thread used for stitching. So, if something glows under the black light, in can’t be older than when these whiteners/brighteners came into use. But not all new materials will glow. So, if it glows, it can’t be that old. If it doesn’t glow, it may or may not be old.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-collectibles/

[999Tony]

Pennant Fever: The Story of a New Obsession

So until recently, I was just another run of the mill baseball card collector. I didn't own a single pennant. Then I started reading this thread. I noticed a change in myself partway through. I began to get an itch, then an urge, then a fervent need to have pennants. A couple weeks ago I began scouring ebay for every baseball pennant listing. There were tons of cools ones that I just HAD to have. I put opening bids on 20 or 30. I watched 30 or 40 more. I checked the listing multiple times a day. But the fever hadn't completely overwhelmed me. I realized I had no idea of values or scarcity, so I wouldn't do any crazy bidding until I got the price guide. Plus, I needed to focus, start with getting a single team. The KC Monarchs pennant was awesome, but out of my price range. So I decided to start with getting KC A's pennants --doable, weren't in existence that long, there were several cool pennant for sale, I decided I really wanted one of the cool white elephant ones. Gotta get a white elephant!

So I got my first pennant. Late at night there was one I put in a really low bid. Within five minutes the seller accepted, without even a counteroffer (uhoh. For those who don't know, not a good sign)

See photo. Take a moment to study it closely, if you've read this far . . .
Did a dog chew off the end?



Oh, you say. Well. Um--er--well it does have character. Hey, if you like it, that's cool, people should collect what they like, as long as you enjoy it, and condition doesn't bother you, good for you . . .you must be a big Knicks fan.

I say --no not at all. Don't care at all about the Knicks. Never even lived in New York, or anywhere close.

Oh you say. Well at least you started an NBA collection.
I say true, but I don't care about the NBA --don't collect any basketball stuff.

Oh. You say. In that case, CONGRATULATIONS! You got your white elephant after all!




(I actually love the vintage look of my white elephant. Though I am hoping to get some other white elephants in the future)

[Fballguy]

Welcome to the addiction. Slight tip damage but otherwise a cool pennant.

I have a white elephant on eBay right now....just saying.

[perezfan]

Welcome Tony...

Question... Did the ebay seller picture the tip in his listing? If not, I'd say you have a case, and an automatic return (should you desire). If he did picture the tip, then it's yours in all its glory.

These types of condition issues do severely impact the value of the pennant. I can see why the seller snapped up your offer, as it's very tough to sell these tattered ones. Still a cool and pretty rare pennant.

I may throw a few of my A's White Elephant pennants onto this thread, just to wet your whistle and spice things up. If they show up sideways, I won't bother. Regardless, you should have no trouble finding some nice ones on your own. If you search ebay, just be sure to exclude all the cheapies under $20. You'll save yourself countless hours of futility. Welcome to the club!

[999Tony]

Oh no, it was all on me. The seller was very very open and honest about the poor condition. The seller showed a close up of the tip, er I mean the missing tip and chewed up end. It was late at night and the plastic pennant container was included, and I don't have any pennant sleeves yet . . . it was really cheap . .

So this is perfect for me. If there isn't anyone collecting tattered pennants, I will have the market to myself! Though if anyone has seen the 1961 Reds pennant on ebay for $9.99, that has been relisted, you're welcome to it, as even though I'm a Reds fan, that one is too battered and ugly even for me! See, I do have standards.