AH Blues

Rhotchkiss · #1 05-21-2018, 06:24 PM

Auction houses charge a buyers premium, eBay does not. If you want to bid on anything, auction or eBay, read the damn rules and know what your getting/how it works (and that includes shipping). What is up with people bitching about rules that are clearly stated for all the world to read?? You don�t like the rules, don�t like the shipping, don�t like when or how an auction ends.... don�t participate!

And for the record, if you bid on an auction and don�t read the rules to know you are paying a buyers premium, then F-you, you are an idiot and you deserve whatever unhappiness your stupidity or irresponsibility got you.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 05-21-2018, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Auction houses charge a buyers premium, eBay does not. If you want to bid on anything, auction or eBay, read the damn rules and know what your getting/how it works (and that includes shipping). What is up with people bitching about rules that are clearly stated for all the world to read?? You don�t like the rules, don�t like the shipping, don�t like when or how an auction ends.... don�t participate!

And for the record, if you bid on an auction and don�t read the rules to know you are paying a buyers premium, then F-you, you are an idiot and you deserve whatever unhappiness your stupidity or irresponsibility got you.

LOL I was just reading that the buyer's premium dates back to ancient Rome. Maybe Rob had an ancestor who bitched about it back then.

Rhotchkiss · #3 05-21-2018, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL I was just reading that the buyer's premium dates back to ancient Rome.

I saw that too, expect back then it was XX percent

Peter_Spaeth · #4 05-21-2018, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I saw that too, expect back then it was XX percent

Yeah emptors have been getting whacked throughout history.

Fballguy · #5 05-21-2018, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL I was just reading that the buyer's premium dates back to ancient Rome. Maybe Rob had an ancestor who bitched about it back then.

And I think the one's on here defending it date back to ancient Rome too.

Fballguy · #6 05-21-2018, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Auction houses charge a buyers premium, eBay does not. If you want to bid on anything, auction or eBay, read the damn rules and know what your getting/how it works (and that includes shipping). What is up with people bitching about rules that are clearly stated for all the world to read?? You don�t like the rules, don�t like the shipping, don�t like when or how an auction ends.... don�t participate!

And for the record, if you bid on an auction and don�t read the rules to know you are paying a buyers premium, then F-you, you are an idiot and you deserve whatever unhappiness your stupidity or irresponsibility got you.

Well that settles it. Never question anything that's clearly stated. If it's clearly stated it must be right. The government clearly states what they're taking out of your paycheck and I'm sure you never bitched about it.

By the way...The crotchety-meter is off the charts on this post. Love the ones who come in hot with instant anger.

tiger8mush · #7 05-22-2018, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Well that settles it. Never question anything that's clearly stated. If it's clearly stated it must be right.

Why so much sarcasm? If you feel the buyer's premium is unjust, you don't have to bid in the auction. Stick to ebay. Or bid w/AHs and take the BP into consideration.

Leon · #8 05-22-2018, 09:51 AM

I don't see hot and instant anger as much as the amazement that you can't comprehend a simple matter more cogently. You are griping about a rule that is plainly stated and questioning it's validity? If you don't like the rules don't bid. If it is clearly stated it is in fact correct. AH's make their rules you don't. Not sure why you are so obstinate about an easy issue. You can gripe all you want to, the rules won't change. And yes, for their respective auctions, they are "right."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Well that settles it. Never question anything that's clearly stated. If it's clearly stated it must be right. The government clearly states what they're taking out of your paycheck and I'm sure you never bitched about it.

By the way...The crotchety-meter is off the charts on this post. Love the ones who come in hot with instant anger.

x2drich2000 · #9 05-22-2018, 10:20 AM

Leon, while I believe Rob is coming across as complaining about paying the buyer's premiums, I think the real root of his question is why do auction houses charge a buyers premium and no sellers fee instead of charging a seller's fee and no buyer's premium. Responses such as "It doesn't matter" or it is just "semantics" address how to think about the buyer's premium from the buyer's prospective, those responses don't really give a reason or explanation for why every auction house charges a buyers premium.

Personally, I think the why is answered in the marketing strategy of the auction house to the consignor and trying to make the AH look as attractive as possible from a consignor's prospective. Charging a seller's fee when other auction houses don't I think would make getting consignments even more difficult, but I could easily be wrong. Leon, not to single you out, but you and Scott had one of the lowest BP and zero seller's fees, did you guys ever discuss lowering the BP even lower and charging a seller's fee instead? What was the driving forces in determining how you collected your commission?

sb1 · #10 05-22-2018, 10:41 AM

Here are the facts of the matter:

Without consignments there will be no auction. It is much easier to get consignments for free than charging the seller to use your AH platform. The sports collectible auctions have all gone this route and don't expect them to change it anytime soon.

Without making a profit the auction house will not continue to exist. SO...
The buyers are the path of least resistance, they see something they want and are willing to pay for the right to bid and win it. As most have indicated you just have to factor in the percentage of the bp on top of your bid and you have your total cost for the item.

Other less competitive genre's still charge a buyers and sellers premium, because... wait for it... there are very few options for a seller to auction material and/or the huge costs of presenting the items for sale. So the number of additional AH's has actually lowered the overall cost of the transaction. All of these vary from genre to genre. Many more upscale antiquities, paintings, etc, garner a 20-25% seller and buyer fee(think Christies, Sotheby's, etc), as the venue's for these are farer and fewer between, if they had more competition the rates on both sides of the equation would have to give somewhat. Even Mecum and Barrett-Jackson charge sellers and buyers premium, but they are more flexible and even change at the hammer to make a deal for the house, the buyer and the seller come together.

Scott

Peter_Spaeth · #11 05-22-2018, 10:49 AM

If an AH had a 10 percent seller's fee and no buyer's premium, my guess is they would do just fine getting consignments.

sb1 · #12 05-22-2018, 10:58 AM

Peter,

I think it would be an uphill battle for anyone trying to go that route at this point in time.

The buyer is the end consumer and would be happy to pay no fee, but the consignor/seller would not be so willing to pay 10% off the top when he could call the next guy and pay nothing. So again no consignments, no auction. It would take the majority of AH's making this change all at once to make this even plausible, and then one gets short of material and they are back to offering Zero consignor fees. Today's setup is just free market working it's way in the sports AH world.

I might add that the only way you would be able to garner more seller interest in having a consignor fee would be the premise of a bigger payout due to the AH being able to get more money for the client, which is where many/most of the problems of the AH's began with trying to get higher prices than their competitors, which in fact were not always legit sales/bids as we now know.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #13 05-22-2018, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If an AH had a 10 percent seller's fee and no buyer's premium, my guess is they would do just fine getting consignments.

Maybe, but they'd go out of business!

Fballguy · #14 05-22-2018, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sb1

Here are the facts of the matter:

Without consignments there will be no auction. It is much easier to get consignments for free than charging the seller to use your AH platform. The sports collectible auctions have all gone this route and don't expect them to change it anytime soon.

Without making a profit the auction house will not continue to exist. SO...
The buyers are the path of least resistance, they see something they want and are willing to pay for the right to bid and win it. As most have indicated you just have to factor in the percentage of the bp on top of your bid and you have your total cost for the item.

And without buyers there would be no auction. So that argument is kind of moot.

This is one of the few honest responses in this thread. The buyer is the path of least resistance. No talk of semantics or it "all being the same in the end". It is what it is. A fee the buyer has to add on....because historically they've been conditioned to.

I'd be curious to see a comparison of sale prices for similar items sold with and without buyer's premium. I'd be willing to bet the difference in most instances is the buyer's premium...and that bidding was not surpressed to the point of equilibrium.

Fballguy · #15 05-22-2018, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

L I think the real root of his question is why do auction houses charge a buyers premium and no sellers fee instead of charging a seller's fee and no buyer's premium.

Bingo...What do you know. Finally, somebody gets it.

Fballguy · #16 05-22-2018, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't see hot and instant anger as much as the amazement that you can't comprehend a simple matter more cogently. You are griping about a rule that is plainly stated and questioning it's validity? If you don't like the rules don't bid. If it is clearly stated it is in fact correct. AH's make their rules you don't. Not sure why you are so obstinate about an easy issue. You can gripe all you want to, the rules won't change. And yes, for their respective auctions, they are "right."

Who says the rules won't change? Maybe you hope they won't but that's not the kind of forward thinking that's made this country great. Just because it's the way it is doesn't mean it's the best way. Everything evolves except auction houses I guess. Those haven't changed since ancient Rome I hear. But I suspect they have a date with destiny. The next generation of collectors won't be as eager to fork over money for nothing as this older generation is.

And for the record...as it's been skewed here...My argument all along is that the buyer should'n't have to foot the bill for a service being provided to the seller. Not that the auction houses are wrong for charging fees.

PS...Save the suppressed bidding argument. That's only a piece...not the whole.

Bored5000 · #17 05-22-2018, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Who says the rules won't change? Maybe you hope they won't but that's not the kind of forward thinking that's made this country great. Just because it's the way it is doesn't mean it's the best way. Everything evolves except auction houses I guess. Those haven't changed since ancient Rome I hear. But I suspect they have a date with destiny. The next generation of collectors won't be as eager to fork over money for nothing as this older generation is.

And for the record...as it's been skewed here...My argument all along is that the buyer should'n't have to foot the bill for a service being provided to the seller. Not that the auction houses are wrong for charging fees.

PS...Save the suppressed bidding argument. That's only a piece...not the whole.

If you believe a card is worth $1,000 and are willing to pay $1,000, how is the buyer "footing the bill" when the buyer is still only willing to spend the same amount?

The only way that argument makes sense is if the buyer is completely oblivious of the 20 percent until after the auction is over. Anyone other than a total newbie realizes there is a 20 percent fee and adjusts their bid accordingly so that it will not surpass the maximum amount they are willing to spend.

Orioles1954 · #18 05-22-2018, 12:33 PM

Although I gave up active collecting 5-10 years ago, when I did consign with an auction house (always with 15-20% buyer's premium) I ALWAYS. ALWAYS. ALWAYS got more with the AH than ebay. There are many well funded collectors who just refuse to go the ebay route.

Peter_Spaeth · #19 05-22-2018, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Although I gave up active collecting 5-10 years ago, when I did consign with an auction house (always with 15-20% buyer's premium) I ALWAYS. ALWAYS. ALWAYS got more with the AH than ebay. There are many well funded collectors who just refuse to go the ebay route.

Check some PWCC prices and get back to us.

Peter_Spaeth · #20 05-22-2018, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored5000

If you believe a card is worth $1,000 and are willing to pay $1,000, how is the buyer "footing the bill" when the buyer is still only willing to spend the same amount?

The only way that argument makes sense is if the buyer is completely oblivious of the 20 percent until after the auction is over. Anyone other than a total newbie realizes there is a 20 percent fee and adjusts their bid accordingly so that it will not surpass the maximum amount they are willing to spend.

Why bother lol. DNFTT.

Fballguy · #21 05-22-2018, 04:16 PM

You're example applies to card collectors. And I can see how it works for them because they know, if they don't get this one...they'll get another shot at it in a month or two. So you can wait to get it at your price. You also have a wealth of previous sales to help you determine what your max price is.

I collect pennants. What I'm looking for comes around once every 10 years if I'm lucky. It's hard to place a price on something that comes along only once every 10 years...so I can't go in saying this pennant is worth $1000, not one penny more...unless I'm also willing to say "Ok...I'm never going to own it because it's probably not coming around again."

So your logic doesn't apply to everyone...Collector's of things more rare than a $1000 card don't have that luxury....and even if they did, it doesn't explain why the buyer should pay for the service provided to the seller.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored5000

If you believe a card is worth $1,000 and are willing to pay $1,000, how is the buyer "footing the bill" when the buyer is still only willing to spend the same amount?

The only way that argument makes sense is if the buyer is completely oblivious of the 20 percent until after the auction is over. Anyone other than a total newbie realizes there is a 20 percent fee and adjusts their bid accordingly so that it will not surpass the maximum amount they are willing to spend.

Peter_Spaeth · #22 05-22-2018, 04:21 PM

This is a complete non sequitur. The fact that you don't have reliable price information for pennants has nothing whatsoever to do with the buyer's premium issue. In the end you are bidding what you decide to bid, and it makes no difference how the auction calculates its fee. You aren't "footing the bill." You are bidding what you decide to bid. The consignor is footing the bill because he is only getting a percentage of the sum you pay the AH and the AH is keeping a share. If you pay 120, the consignor gets 100. How on earth are YOU footing that bill? Good luck in your search.

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