Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rats60

I was just pointing out that Clemente was better than Jackie over those same years. WAR severely penalizes Clemente as a RF and in my opinion gives an undeserved bonus to 2B. There is no doubt that Jackie was a great player. He should have won 2 or 3 MVP awards, but it is a real stretch to put him in the top 2 or 3 at 2B. Claiming he missed "prime" years is something we don't know. Clemente's prime was age 29 to 36. I would have Clemente top 3 RF with Ruth and Aaron and Ruth played almost as many games in LF as RF.

Agreed. Top 2 or 3 at 2nd base means you have to put him ahead of at least half of these guys: Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins, Joe Morgan, Nap Lajoie. That's untenable. The order is debatable, but those are pretty clearly the top 4.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why does Carew get no love? His OBP SLG OPS and OPS+ are, interestingly and somewhat eerily really, virtually identical to Morgan. 7 batting titles. 3000 hits. Very high BA. Was it his fielding or lack thereof?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why does Carew get no love? His OBP SLG OPS and OPS+ are, interestingly and somewhat eerily really, virtually identical to Morgan. 7 batting titles. 3000 hits. Very high BA. Was it his fielding or lack thereof?

Only half his career at 2b if I recall. Same issue with Rose although in his case it's even less than half. Same problem I have calling Yount or Banks a top 5 shortstop.

[Exhibitman]

Plus, his cards look really nice.



For my money the best looking of the 1956 Topps cards.

And again in 1969:



and 1972:



Such a shame there wasn't a 1974 Topps tribute card to Clemente.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A few of my favorites.

Many great cards of him.

[aloondilana]

I too have often used Al Kaline as an example to compare what Clemente's worth would be if he wasn't the hispanic poster boy and didn't die tragically.

Clemente was a great all around player, but in no way shape or form should his cards be in or above the range of Mays, Aaron, Ted Williams etc.

[71buc]

Originally Posted by aloondilana

I too have often used Al Kaline as an example to compare what Clemente's worth would be if he wasn't the hispanic poster boy and didn't die tragically.

Clemente was a great all around player, but in no way shape or form should his cards be in or above the range of Mays, Aaron, Ted Williams etc.

Hispanic Poster Boy...wow

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why does Carew get no love? His OBP SLG OPS and OPS+ are, interestingly and somewhat eerily really, virtually identical to Morgan. 7 batting titles. 3000 hits. Very high BA. Was it his fielding or lack thereof?

1. Not the best clutch hitter when the team really needed that big "2 out" hit in a close game.

2. No power whatsoever.... not many extra base hits.

3. No championships at all.

Morgan was a GREAT clutch hitter, had some surprising power, and won two World Championships. Granted, Carew played in Minnesota at a time that they were not great.

Those would be the 3 reasons that immediately come to mind. There's more to it than just stats on paper. But MLB did put the A.L. Batting Title in his name, and he was a great singles hitter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

1. Not the best clutch hitter when the team really needed that big "2 out" hit in a close game.

2. No power whatsoever.... not many extra base hits.

3. No championships at all.

Morgan was a GREAT clutch hitter, had some surprising power, and won two World Championships. Granted, Carew played in Minnesota at a time that they were not great.

Those would be the 3 reasons that immediately come to mind. There's more to it than just stats on paper. But MLB did put the A.L. Batting Title in his name, and he was a great singles hitter.

His SLG was the same as Morgan's. Less power but a lot more hits.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Morgan was a GREAT clutch hitter

Define "clutch".

One measure of "clutch" situations is guys in scoring position. Morgan hit .261 with RISP. 2 outs and RISP, just .253.

"Late & Close", he hit .265.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Define "clutch".

One measure of "clutch" situations is guys in scoring position. Morgan hit .261 with RISP. 2 outs and RISP, just .253.

"Late & Close", he hit .265.

What about .329 with RISP, .319 2 outs and RISP and .343 late and close? Is that a clutch hitter?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Most assessments of someone's "clutch" hitting are anecdotal and biased. I very much doubt that over a career many players deviate significantly from their BA however you define "clutch" situations.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Most assessments of someone's "clutch" hitting are anecdotal and biased. I very much doubt that over a career many players deviate significantly from their BA however you define "clutch" situations.

Actual stats say you are wrong. Mike Trout is a career .306 hitter. 2 outs RISP .272. Late and close .252.

Barry Bonds .298 career hitter. 2 outs RISP .266. Late and close .275.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

What about .329 with RISP, .319 2 outs and RISP and .343 late and close? Is that a clutch hitter?

Who are we talking about?