Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Bill James also had a center field bias at the time. Four of his top 6 were centerfielders.

Then again, maybe the best all around players tend to be center fielders. Look at me, I can be, center field.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then again, maybe the best all around players tend to be center fielders. Look at me, I can be, center field.

True to a point anyway.

His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James.

Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time:

1 Babe Ruth
2 Barry Bonds
3 Ty Cobb
4 Willie Mays
5 Hank Aaron
6 Honus Wagner
7 Tris Speaker
8 Stan Musial
9 Rogers Hornsby
10 Eddie Collins

Mickey Mantle is #12

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

True to a point anyway.

His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James.

Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time:

1 Babe Ruth
2 Barry Bonds
3 Ty Cobb
4 Willie Mays
5 Hank Aaron
6 Honus Wagner
7 Tris Speaker
8 Stan Musial
9 Rogers Hornsby
10 Eddie Collins

Mickey Mantle is #12

I could live with that list except where the hell is Ted Williams. And Gehrig?

[packs]

How does it make sense to include Barry Bonds? If you want to talk about ability, then I would support Bonds being a part of the discussion. But none of his stats are authentic and I would not include him in any discussions based on stats.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I cannot imagine any serious metric that does not rank Ted in the top TEN of all time?

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I cannot imagine any serious metric that does not rank Ted in the top TEN of all time?

Except offensive WAR per plate appearance. Where he ranks 11th.

He is within a scant 1.5 points of being in 8th, ahead of Musial and Collins and Hornsby.

There is a gap of 5 full points from Williams at #11 to Mantle at #12.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

How does it make sense to include Barry Bonds? If you want to talk about ability, then I would support Bonds being a part of the discussion. But none of his stats are authentic and I would not include him in any discussions based on stats.

If his stats were inflated, how do you know what his true ability was?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If his stats were inflated, how do you know what his true ability was?

You don't. But he certainly doesn't belong in a conversation about stats. He may as well have no stats to me. None of them are real.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I could live with that list except where the hell is Ted Williams. And Gehrig?

Williams = 11

Gehrig = 13

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Williams = 11

Gehrig = 13

I can't imagine excluding Williams from the top ten hitters of all time. I suppose you could argue Gehrig but I would put him ahead of Mantle and Collins, if not Hornsby.

[btcarfagno]

Hold on.

I was using an older list and oWAR calculations have been tweaked since then.

Updated list shortly..

[btcarfagno]

As of today, I do have a bit of newfound respect for Mr. Mantle. With the new oWAR calculations, he has moved up the list.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Ty Cobb
6. Willie Mays
7. Barry Bonds
8. Mickey Mantle
9. Dan Brouthers
10. Joe Jackson
11. Honus Wagner
12. Tris Speaker


WAR has added value to OBP and most especially walks in the intervening 8 years since the old list I had shown. That was lazy on my part....my apologies to all.

[tedzan]

Sorry guys, but I have to when I read some of these comments regarding Mantle. First of all, how many of you saw him play during the years 1952 - 1964 ? ?

Us older dudes were fortunate to see him play. You wouldn't believe the excitement Mickey generated every time he came to bat. I have traded stories with my
Father-in-law, who saw Babe Ruth play and the air of excitement was very similar. Like in the days of Ruth, our expectations every time were that Mickey would
drive the baseball 500 - 600 feet out of the ballpark.

OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers......

BA = .313 (1952 - 1964)

RBI's = 102/year (avg. based on 162 games/year)

HR's = 454 (1952 - 1964), which translates to a HR every 13.4 AB's

18 HR's in 11 - World Series (including a Grand Slam in the 1953 W.S.)

Trust me guys, Mickey was a better CLUTCH HITTER than most.

And, no one talks about his fielding ability. For half of each season, Mickey excellently covered the most expansive CF in baseball (Yankee Stadium) back then.

I will never, ever forget watching him run a "country mile" in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series to catch a 440-foot drive by Gil Hodges right in front of the
Monuments (which saved Don Larsen's Perfect game).



Type 2 ................................... Double Printed ....................................... Type 1
. .




And, I might add....any comparison of these ballplayer that doesn't include Ted Williams in the top ten is completely worthless. Forget his great statistics.
You had to see him play to really appreciate him......and, I was very fortunate watching Ted play from 1947 - 1960.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[hedgefund96]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

True to a point anyway.

His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James.

Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time:

1 Babe Ruth
2 Barry Bonds
3 Ty Cobb
4 Willie Mays
5 Hank Aaron
6 Honus Wagner
7 Tris Speaker
8 Stan Musial
9 Rogers Hornsby
10 Eddie Collins

Mickey Mantle is #12

You cannot go wrong with that list...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

True to a point anyway.

His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James.

Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time:

1 Babe Ruth
2 Barry Bonds
3 Ty Cobb
4 Willie Mays
5 Hank Aaron
6 Honus Wagner
7 Tris Speaker
8 Stan Musial
9 Rogers Hornsby
10 Eddie Collins

Mickey Mantle is #12

Where the *&^%*&^% is Ted Williams?