Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Williams = 11

Gehrig = 13

I can't imagine excluding Williams from the top ten hitters of all time. I suppose you could argue Gehrig but I would put him ahead of Mantle and Collins, if not Hornsby.

[btcarfagno]

Hold on.

I was using an older list and oWAR calculations have been tweaked since then.

Updated list shortly..

[btcarfagno]

As of today, I do have a bit of newfound respect for Mr. Mantle. With the new oWAR calculations, he has moved up the list.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Ty Cobb
6. Willie Mays
7. Barry Bonds
8. Mickey Mantle
9. Dan Brouthers
10. Joe Jackson
11. Honus Wagner
12. Tris Speaker


WAR has added value to OBP and most especially walks in the intervening 8 years since the old list I had shown. That was lazy on my part....my apologies to all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Now that's more like it for Ted and Lou.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Now that's more like it for Ted and Lou.

Any list of top ten hitters in history without Williams and Gehrig isn't worth its salt, imo.

[the 'stache]

Joey Gallo has a career strike out rate of 45%.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Joey Gallo has a career strike out rate of 45%.

Frank B., he of dinger-whiff fame, may have to consider making Joey his avatar.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Joey Gallo has a career strike out rate of 45%.

Do you imagine then guys like Ron Kittle, Dave Kingman, Mickey Tettleton etc are cursing that they were born a generation or two too soon?

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Joey Gallo has a career strike out rate of 45%.

Don't let Joe Sewell know about this, or else he would turn over in his Hall of Fame grave.

Brian

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

As of today, I do have a bit of newfound respect for Mr. Mantle. With the new oWAR calculations, he has moved up the list.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Ty Cobb
6. Willie Mays
7. Barry Bonds
8. Mickey Mantle
9. Dan Brouthers
10. Joe Jackson
11. Honus Wagner
12. Tris Speaker


WAR has added value to OBP and most especially walks in the intervening 8 years since the old list I had shown. That was lazy on my part....my apologies to all.

This is why I couldn't care less about these new stats like WAR. They are just weighted combined averages that can be changed or manipulated to favor one outcome or another. Obviously the great players will still be at or near the top, but they are far from perfect.

As for having a newfound respect for someone because he's higher on the list based on a new calculation, I find that pretty ridiculous. I don't need anyone to create a new stat or manipulate an old one to convince me who the all time greats were. There are so many factors that change over time that it's difficult to truly compare players from different eras. No formula will ever get it exactly right.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This is why I couldn't care less about these new stats like WAR. They are just weighted combined averages that can be changed or manipulated to favor one outcome or another. Obviously the great players will still be at or near the top, but they are far from perfect.

As for having a newfound respect for someone because he's higher on the list based on a new calculation, I find that pretty ridiculous. I don't need anyone to create a new stat or manipulate an old one to convince me who the all time greats were. There are so many factors that change over time that it's difficult to truly compare players from different eras. No formula will ever get it exactly right.

Funny, I think sort of the opposite, that baseball changes less than other sports. I think if we were transported, say, back to the 20s to watch a game, the similarities would far outweigh any differences. I very much doubt that would be the case with football or basketball.

[aloondilana]

Supposedly there is a Clemente movie coming out next year or year after.
We all know what happened to Jackie Robinson cards after that movie.
Time to get in on Roberto.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This is why I couldn't care less about these new stats like WAR. They are just weighted combined averages that can be changed or manipulated to favor one outcome or another. Obviously the great players will still be at or near the top, but they are far from perfect.

As for having a newfound respect for someone because he's higher on the list based on a new calculation, I find that pretty ridiculous. I don't need anyone to create a new stat or manipulate an old one to convince me who the all time greats were. There are so many factors that change over time that it's difficult to truly compare players from different eras. No formula will ever get it exactly right.

I have always been of the opinion that Mantle value is based more off of hype and emotion than statistical reality. I still think that this is true, but when a statistic that I put great credence in shows him to be better than I thought, it makes me take notice. I never said he wasn't one.of the all time greats. That is not what I am arguing and is a strawman at best. I merely said that Mantle is not one of the ten best players who ever lived. I stand by that, although I now think he may be closer to number ten than I had first thought.

Still not top ten though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My top 10 non-pitchers non-Bonds non-A Rod would probably be

Ruth
Mays
Cobb
Williams
Gehrig
Aaron
Wagner
Musial
Speaker
DiMaggio

Mantle would be right behind these, and Hornsby.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My top 10 non-pitchers non-Bonds non-A Rod would probably be

Ruth
Mays
Cobb
Williams
Gehrig
Aaron
Wagner
Musial
Speaker
DiMaggio

Mantle would be right behind these, and Hornsby.

I would put Mantle ahead of Joe D but behind Hornsby and the rest.i also have to put Bonds ahead of him. Not A-Rod.

So to me, not including Negro League players like Gibson or Charleston...which is unfortunate....I would put Mantle as the 11th greatest position player of all time. Also behind at least six or seven pitchers.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I have always been of the opinion that Mantle value is based more off of hype and emotion than statistical reality. I still think that this is true, but when a statistic that I put great credence in shows him to be better than I thought, it makes me take notice. I never said he wasn't one.of the all time greats. That is not what I am arguing and is a strawman at best. I merely said that Mantle is not one of the ten best players who ever lived. I stand by that, although I now think he may be closer to number ten than I had first thought.

Still not top ten though.

There is more to being an all time great than stats alone. A big part of it is post season play and coming up with clutch hits or shots in big moments. Being the best player on the best team for 2 decades doesnt hurt either. They could come up with some new stat that puts Mantle, or anyone else in the top 5, or out of the top 50, and it wouldn't change my opinion.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

There is more to being an all time great than stats alone. A big part of it is post season play and coming up with clutch hits or shots in big moments. Being the best player on the best team for 2 decades doesnt hurt either. They could come up with some new stat that puts Mantle, or anyone else in the top 5, or out of the top 50, and it wouldn't change my opinion.

And that is exactly the way that it should be.

For me, Steve Garvey is a great example of this. Growing up in the 1970's, Garvey was a player I always wanted to emulate even though I was never a fan of the Dodgers. As a "National League" fan, Garvey was the type of player that I loved having on "my team" in the all star game. His cards were not as prized by me as were my beloved Pirates, but his cards were very much admired and respected. Since the stat revolution, his stature in the game has dropped dramatically. I argue all the time about how overrated he was. But in my mind and in my memories, Garvey was always one of the greats of the game. My heart remembers this even if my mind now may know better. I will always remember him the way I want to remember him.

Now obviously Mantle is in a whole different world, and we are basically arguing over whether he is a top 10 player of all time or top 20. He was obviously one of the greatest of the greats. AND he has that emotional pull on so many who saw him play.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

There is more to being an all time great than stats alone. A big part of it is post season play and coming up with clutch hits or shots in big moments. Being the best player on the best team for 2 decades doesnt hurt either. They could come up with some new stat that puts Mantle, or anyone else in the top 5, or out of the top 50, and it wouldn't change my opinion.

Since you're way too young to have seen him, what are you going on other than stats? Folklore?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

As of today, I do have a bit of newfound respect for Mr. Mantle. With the new oWAR calculations, he has moved up the list.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Ty Cobb
6. Willie Mays
7. Barry Bonds
8. Mickey Mantle
9. Dan Brouthers
10. Joe Jackson
11. Honus Wagner
12. Tris Speaker


WAR has added value to OBP and most especially walks in the intervening 8 years since the old list I had shown. That was lazy on my part....my apologies to all.

LOL oh, there he is.

[tedzan]

Sorry guys, but I have to when I read some of these comments regarding Mantle. First of all, how many of you saw him play during the years 1952 - 1964 ? ?

Us older dudes were fortunate to see him play. You wouldn't believe the excitement Mickey generated every time he came to bat. I have traded stories with my
Father-in-law, who saw Babe Ruth play and the air of excitement was very similar. Like in the days of Ruth, our expectations every time were that Mickey would
drive the baseball 500 - 600 feet out of the ballpark.

OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers......

BA = .313 (1952 - 1964)

RBI's = 102/year (avg. based on 162 games/year)

HR's = 454 (1952 - 1964), which translates to a HR every 13.4 AB's

18 HR's in 11 - World Series (including a Grand Slam in the 1953 W.S.)

Trust me guys, Mickey was a better CLUTCH HITTER than most.

And, no one talks about his fielding ability. For half of each season, Mickey excellently covered the most expansive CF in baseball (Yankee Stadium) back then.

I will never, ever forget watching him run a "country mile" in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series to catch a 440-foot drive by Gil Hodges right in front of the
Monuments (which saved Don Larsen's Perfect game).



Type 2 ................................... Double Printed ....................................... Type 1
. .




And, I might add....any comparison of these ballplayer that doesn't include Ted Williams in the top ten is completely worthless. Forget his great statistics.
You had to see him play to really appreciate him......and, I was very fortunate watching Ted play from 1947 - 1960.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers......

what is a "neo-term"?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

what is a "neo-term"?

I thought it was very well stated actually.

To Ted's point about generating excitement at the plate, I only saw Mantle very late in his career, but I would make a similar observation about Reggie Jackson, it was always an event with him at the plate.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought it was very well stated actually.

To Ted's point about generating excitement at the plate, I only saw Mantle very late in his career, but I would make a similar observation about Reggie Jackson, it was always an event with him at the plate.

i would maintain that WAR isn't a "new" term, assuming that's what ted meant. i'm just not sure what he means.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

i would maintain that WAR isn't a "new" term

When your memory goes back to Cobb and Wagner it is. Just kidding, Ted.

[hedgefund96]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry guys, but I have to when I read some of these comments regarding Mantle. First of all, how many of you saw him play during the years 1952 - 1964 ? ?

Us older dudes were fortunate to see him play. You wouldn't believe the excitement Mickey generated every time he came to bat. I have traded stories with my
Father-in-law, who saw Babe Ruth play and the air of excitement was very similar. Like in the days of Ruth, our expectations every time were that Mickey would
drive the baseball 500 - 600 feet out of the ballpark.

OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers......

BA = .313 (1952 - 1964)

RBI's = 102/year (avg. based on 162 games/year)

HR's = 454 (1952 - 1964), which translates to a HR every 13.4 AB's

18 HR's in 11 - World Series (including a Grand Slam in the 1953 W.S.)

Trust me guys, Mickey was a better CLUTCH HITTER than most.

And, no one talks about his fielding ability. For half of each season, Mickey excellently covered the most expansive CF in baseball (Yankee Stadium) back then.

I will never, ever forget watching him run a "country mile" in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series to catch a 440-foot drive by Gil Hodges right in front of the
Monuments (which saved Don Larsen's Perfect game).



Type 2 ................................... Double Printed ....................................... Type 1
. .




And, I might add....any comparison of these ballplayer that doesn't include Ted Williams in the top ten is completely worthless. Forget his great statistics.
You had to see him play to really appreciate him......and, I was very fortunate watching Ted play from 1947 - 1960.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted,

My father can attest to your comment as well as he grew up in Flushing, NY and was a BIG Yankee fan. He LOVED the Mick and he went to countless games in the 50's and 60's...

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry guys, but I have to when I read some of these comments regarding Mantle. First of all, how many of you saw him play during the years 1952 - 1964 ? ?

Us older dudes were fortunate to see him play. You wouldn't believe the excitement Mickey generated every time he came to bat. I have traded stories with my
Father-in-law, who saw Babe Ruth play and the air of excitement was very similar. Like in the days of Ruth, our expectations every time were that Mickey would
drive the baseball 500 - 600 feet out of the ballpark.

OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers......

BA = .313 (1952 - 1964)

RBI's = 102/year (avg. based on 162 games/year)

HR's = 454 (1952 - 1964), which translates to a HR every 13.4 AB's

18 HR's in 11 - World Series (including a Grand Slam in the 1953 W.S.)

Trust me guys, Mickey was a better CLUTCH HITTER than most.

And, no one talks about his fielding ability. For half of each season, Mickey excellently covered the most expansive CF in baseball (Yankee Stadium) back then.

I will never, ever forget watching him run a "country mile" in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series to catch a 440-foot drive by Gil Hodges right in front of the
Monuments (which saved Don Larsen's Perfect game).



Type 2 ................................... Double Printed ....................................... Type 1
. .




And, I might add....any comparison of these ballplayer that doesn't include Ted Williams in the top ten is completely worthless. Forget his great statistics.
You had to see him play to really appreciate him......and, I was very fortunate watching Ted play from 1947 - 1960.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

+1 in all respects, Ted.

Always good to hear from you,

Larry